Ep. 1: Rory Garton-Smith, the Sony-Signed Producer Whose App Passed Instagram to #1
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[00:00:00] Rory: I put up a Britney Spears remix of Toxic on SoundCloud that went ballistic overnight, and Britney's team messaged me about it, which was cool. Like, their, their management was like, "We like this." You could buy images of oil tanks and see how full they were based on the shadow floating in the oil tank, and then go and buy oil futures.
[00:00:15] Rory: We were freaking out. We refresh again, we're number two, and then like an hour later we refresh again, we were literally, like, the number one app on Earth.
[00:00:23] Jake: So is that what you say, you're a founder?
[00:00:25] Rory: I say miscellaneous tech shit[00:00:30]
[00:00:38] Sajag: It's a good day here in the studio. Welcome to Coolest Person I Know. I'm Sujag.
[00:00:43] Sajag: This is, uh... Talk, talk to the mic, sir.
[00:00:46] Jake: I'm Sujag's co-host, Jake Geddes. I got dragged into doing this. I'm not a big content guy, but this should be fun.
[00:00:55] Sajag: Such lies, man. You post on LinkedIn more than I do. Uh, thanks so much for being [00:01:00] here.
[00:01:00] Sajag: What, what have you been up to last week in New York?
[00:01:03] Jake: Well, as you know, last night we were at a great fundraiser in Dime Square in the Lower East Side.
[00:01:08] Sajag: Yep,
[00:01:09] Jake: yep. The line to get drinks was abysmal, but we, we figured it out. Uh, Etienne Von Christian throws an incredible party. He does, he does. It was a great party.
[00:01:21] Jake: I loved it. All right. Let's, uh, let's explain, let's explain to everybody how we, we met.
[00:01:27] Sajag: Yeah.
[00:01:28] Jake: Um, and then I guess we could give context [00:01:30] in our background and why we wanted to do this podcast. I think that would be- Yeah ... most helpful.
[00:01:34] Sajag: Let's do it. So we met, uh, at a bathhouse actually.
[00:01:39] Jake: Yeah.
[00:01:39] Sajag: Funny enough. And then-
[00:01:40] Jake: Try to make that not sound weird.
[00:01:41] Sajag: Yeah, yeah. And then I met, uh, I met Jake through another Jake, who I met at the Equinox hot tub. I feel like there's like a-
[00:01:48] Jake: Okay, so this is, this is on you. It's not on me. I
[00:01:52] Sajag: was like, this is when I first moved to New York. I'm like, "Okay, I need to make some friends," and I'm like, "I go to the gym, but no one fucking talks.
[00:01:57] Sajag: I need to like, go talk to people at the gym," right?
[00:01:59] Jake: Okay.
[00:01:59] Sajag: And I [00:02:00] made that, uh, made that mindset, and then went to Equinox, and these two dudes were talking business at the hot tub. And I'm like, "Oh, business. Like, let me jump in on this." And then that's how I met, uh, Fleissner, Jake Fleissner.
[00:02:10] Jake: Okay.
[00:02:11] Sajag: And, uh, he was like, "Oh, come to this event in two weeks, um, at the bathhouse."
[00:02:16] Sajag: And then I met you.
[00:02:17] Jake: I think Jake and Michael are, are inspiration to this a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Because they, they do such a great job of fostering community, and I don't know, uh, I think that's what we aspire to do in New York. They've taught us if you meet cool [00:02:30] people, um, cool things will happen.
[00:02:32] Sajag: Yeah. I think if you're, if you're doing something in New York, like, you know Fleissner and
[00:02:37] Jake: Axman.
[00:02:38] Jake: Yeah.
[00:02:38] Sajag: Those guys are always onto something. We should, we should get these guys on the podcast.
[00:02:42] Jake: We should, yeah. We should probably get them on the podcast at some point. Uh- Yeah ... but yeah, they have a, a group called Nucleus Network, where founders, investors, cool people get together, and originally I think they were out at...
[00:02:52] Jake: Or Jake lives in LA, Michael lives in New York, so they're having events there and here. So yeah, Sujok- Yeah ... and I met, and then I, I [00:03:00] DM'd him, and he didn't respond to me for about six months. And then I didn't respond to him about, for about six months, and I think we, there was just so, so much pent-up emotion- Yeah
[00:03:11] Jake: that when we, we finally hung out, we just... It clicked.
[00:03:14] Sajag: It worked out, yeah, yeah.
[00:03:15] Jake: Yeah.
[00:03:15] Sajag: So now two years in.
[00:03:17] Jake: Yeah. Yeah. And we, uh, now we hang out all the time. I got friends from Connecticut, local to New York. I got friends from college, but spending way too much time now with Sujok. So we decided to, uh, have this [00:03:30] podcast.
[00:03:30] Jake: One thing that's crucial to our friendship is we share, uh, this curiosity to learn from others. Uh, I think we both learn best not from, like, reading things or watching things, but from meeting people And that has led us to host parties, dinner parties, and now this.
[00:03:50] Sajag: Yeah.
[00:03:50] Jake: Um, and you wanna talk about, a little bit about the dinner party- Yeah, yeah
[00:03:53] Jake: maybe how we met our first guest?
[00:03:55] Sajag: Yeah, so Rory, who we'll have here on just in a second, sitting over there, [00:04:00] uh, Rory actually, uh, we met in LA a few years ago. Uh, I met him, uh, through another mutual friend named Kyle who throws dinner parties in LA. And Kyle was actually an inspiration of why I started doing dinner parties in New York.
[00:04:13] Sajag: And, uh, I think I brought it up to you, and then it just kind of started happening, and we've had, like, what, like six dinner parties? Well, yeah, you like to
[00:04:19] Jake: socialize.
[00:04:20] Sajag: Yeah.
[00:04:20] Jake: My dad's a chef and I love to cook and was looking for a creative outlet of some sort.
[00:04:24] Sajag: Your dad's a, dad's a great chef.
[00:04:25] Jake: Dad is an incredible chef.
[00:04:26] Sajag: Insane chef.
[00:04:27] Jake: CIA class or whatever. Three-star
[00:04:28] Sajag: Michelin chef.
[00:04:29] Jake: I don't know, I [00:04:30] don't know about that, but he's a great chef. Um, Etienne's uncle is actually a three-star Michelin. Uh, shout out John George. Yeah. So yeah, we hosted a dinner party. I, I, I wanted to cook. You wanted to socialize. My girlfriend loves throwing events.
[00:04:45] Jake: I forget what the theme was of the first event. Do you know what it was?
[00:04:48] Sajag: Alice in Wonderland. Do you remember, this is when we did shrooms roulette.
[00:04:52] Jake: Yeah, we did mushrooms roulette.
[00:04:53] Sajag: Yeah, yeah.
[00:04:53] Jake: So yeah, we, uh, ev- We should...
[00:04:55] Sajag: Rory, Rory was there. Rory, why don't you come on? Everyone had
[00:04:57] Jake: a p- everyone... No, no, no, no, no.
[00:04:58] Jake: Rory. We're not introing him like that. [00:05:00] We, we, we had a, yeah, laid out a bunch of pieces of dark chocolate, and everyone had to take, uh, have, have a piece of the chocolate. Uh- And- ... turns out it wasn't mushroom roulette. The whole thing was just mushroom chocolate.
[00:05:13] Sajag: Yeah, yeah. So everybody, everybody was on
[00:05:16] Jake: shrooms.
[00:05:16] Sajag: It was, it was pretty funny. It was
[00:05:16] Jake: a great time. And I think we all... Yeah, I think ev- I mean, a microdose, you know, nothing crazy, and I don't know, I think it made for a good bonding moment.
[00:05:23] Sajag: It was, it was. I think everybody had a great time, so.
[00:05:25] Jake: Yeah. So I, I, I mean, Rory was at the dinner party. I [00:05:30] was cooking. So I'm really excited for this podcast just to get to learn who you, you are.
[00:05:36] Jake: We met briefly at one of our dinner part- parties. Sajik had him in, and when you hear what Rory has built and what he's raised and who's backed him, you assume he, he came up through Stanford. He didn't. He grew up in Perth. He was a Sony signed music producer. He has a JD, multiple master degrees, and somewhere in the middle of that, he taught himself to code, got a job at Af- Apple, and then moved to New York with two of his mates to start a company, Checkmate.
[00:05:59] Jake: Google [00:06:00] Ventures led the round. Paris Hilton's in it. The Chainsmokers are in it, and it hit number one on the App Store, and none of it is the most interesting part about him. Rory, welcome. Rory.
[00:06:12] Sajag: Welcome. Come on in. Nice to meet you
[00:06:17] Jake: Our intros will get better over time. Um- Good to see you guys. Yeah. Sorry for the, for the LinkedIn background, but we have to give people context on everything that you've built- Of course ... 'cause it is very impressive, but- I
[00:06:28] Rory: appreciate that ...
[00:06:28] Jake: how about you introduce [00:06:30] yourself and where you're from originally, how you got to New York, and what you've built?
[00:06:36] Rory: Rory Garden-Smith. Uh, grew up in Perth, Western Australia, which fun fact is the furthest major city from New York. Um, it's like literally the opposite end of the Earth. Oh, wow. It's a 12-hour time difference, which when I wanna think about, when I wanna ring my brother, you just switch AM to PM, and you know what time it is there-
[00:06:51] Rory: which is kind of convenient. But basically it's very far away. Uh, moved to the US in 2019, originally to San Francisco, uh, to work at Apple on the iPhones, and, [00:07:00] um, then lived in LA for a bit, which is where we met. And then I moved to New York a year ago because it sounded fun. Yeah. Uh, there was no other reason.
[00:07:07] Rory: Everyone has a New York chapter, I think, and it's one that... It's something that you should do before you die, and, uh, I wanted to have one, and it's been great so far. I really like it.
[00:07:14] Jake: What, uh, what attracted you to the city? What do you mean by that?
[00:07:16] Rory: Everyone who's lived here, like people will rattle on about it.
[00:07:19] Rory: They're like, "Oh, bro, New York's the best city in the world." And like- Yeah ... I kind of, I'm, I'm a curious person. I want to find out if that was true. Yeah. And, um, so far it has been true. I love California so much. I think it still has like a [00:07:30] large part of my heart, but New York is just incredibly fun. There's, it's, it's like stimulation overload here, right?
[00:07:35] Rory: Right. Yeah. There is so much going on. You can go to five parties in a night if you want to, and that's like not even a lot for New York standards. Like it's- Yeah ... actually incredible here. But, uh, yeah, loving it.
[00:07:44] Sajag: You go to California pretty often, right?
[00:07:46] Rory: I do. Most of our team is still based in California.
[00:07:48] Rory: I'm flying back on Wednesday, actually. I'm constantly going back and forth. But, uh, yeah, I've gotten pretty good at that cross-country flight.
[00:07:54] Jake: Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:55] Rory: What's your routine? It's just like a safe
[00:07:57] Jake: window. What's your routine for that cross-country flight?
[00:07:59] Rory: Uh, I [00:08:00] use it to like, it's, I do things on it that you don't need good internet for, but require like-
[00:08:04] Rory: medium mental bandwidth. So like, I will like sort through my phone contacts and make sure that everyone is like tagged to like a location and like who they are and where I met them. I will sort through like my emails and get to inbox zero. I will sort through like the pictures on my phone and like delete ones.
[00:08:17] Rory: Like it's like menial tasks. Yeah. And I just save it- Yeah ... for that flight where like, you know, 'cause the internet, like it's all right, but it's not good enough to like really lock in. Right, right. And, um, and then just like oversee coding agents. Like I'll just make sure they're all like all doing stuff while [00:08:30] I'm there.
[00:08:30] Rory: You do that with the airplane
[00:08:30] Sajag: Wi-Fi and it
[00:08:31] Rory: works? Yeah, yeah. 'Cause they- Really? ... 'cause they're not coding from your device necessarily. Right, right. You can trigger them from like cloud functions, and so you can have them coding while you're on the plane, and then you just oversee and you're like, "My little minions are all building things," which is good.
[00:08:42] Rory: Um- Nice ... I, I have like five agents running at once. Uh, and then otherwise, like, yeah, you just zone out. It's like it's the only time where I like lose myself. But United is getting Starlink soon.
[00:08:51] Sajag: I heard
[00:08:51] Rory: about that. Which is gonna be sick.
[00:08:52] Sajag: I'm so excited.
[00:08:53] Rory: I cannot wait. I've been tracking
[00:08:54] Sajag: it. I've been tracking it since they announced.
[00:08:55] Sajag: It's always, you know,
[00:08:55] Jake: longer than you would expect.
[00:08:57] Rory: Yeah, it's like two years. Well, it's already on a few of the shorter dis- Like I did Palm Springs [00:09:00] to San Francisco, uh, a couple of weeks ago. Really? Starlink. Nine-minute flight-ish, and like Starlink s- the whole way. It's like better than my home Wi-Fi.
[00:09:06] Jake: Wow.
[00:09:06] Rory: It's incredible. So shout out to Elon.
[00:09:08] Jake: So how do you get to Perth from here? Is that
[00:09:10] Rory: straight? Uh, there's two ways. You can go either way around the world. It takes- Like that's how far away it is. Yeah. You have to rotate
[00:09:17] Jake: the flight routes. You can go... Sorry? Do they rotate the flight routes or
[00:09:20] Rory: just like half and half?
[00:09:20] Rory: Uh, you, you can just, you can opt to go via Asia or you can go LA and then Sydney and then Perth. Um- Nice. That's actually, uh, time travel ... and it, it takes far too long. Yeah. It's actually, if you put into United It's [00:09:30] like 31 hours. Um- That's just
[00:09:31] Sajag: crazy.
[00:09:32] Rory: It's like... And it, and it will... It says like plus two days.
[00:09:35] Rory: You know, like the time. It's like so messed up.
[00:09:38] Jake: That's wild. I mean, the cost of that flight right now, it's probably insane.
[00:09:41] Rory: It actually, like sometimes it can be not that bad. Around Christmas it's pretty horrible, um, but I try to strategically time my visits around- Just the
[00:09:47] Jake: gas, I feel like, to get there
[00:09:47] Rory: when it's cheaper. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I do wish that the continental plates had shifted and Western Australia was a bit closer. Like, if Western Australia was where Hawaii was, that'd be great.
[00:09:56] Jake: What's it like there?
[00:09:58] Rory: Beautiful. Yeah. It's two million people [00:10:00] living by the beach. Um- Okay ... it's, it's built so it's kind of like long.
[00:10:03] Rory: Mm-hmm. And it goes along the coastline. Very little stuff goes inland, uh, which actually kind of describes most of Australia. 99% of it is all just along the coast, and then- Beautiful ... the whole middle is like nothing's going on. Although randomly, like I found this out the other day, no one knows this, Australia has more camels than any other place on Earth.
[00:10:19] Rory: Really? But when you think of camels, you do not think of Australia. Yeah. You think of like the Middle East or something. There's just, there's so much desert in the middle. We have the largest wild camel population of any country on Earth. Wow. I lived there my whole life, I've never seen a camel. [00:10:30] Where are they?
[00:10:30] Rory: But it's just such a big country.
[00:10:33] Jake: They're just in the middle.
[00:10:34] Rory: Yeah.
[00:10:35] Jake: Wow.
[00:10:35] Rory: And then Western Australia is, I think this is right, I think it's, uh, 11 times the size of Texas and six times the size of California or something like that. It's so large. It's like so unbelievably large. You can fly for hours and still be inside Western Australia.
[00:10:48] Jake: What's the lifestyle like there? Is it a European style, American style? Yeah. You're
[00:10:51] Sajag: surfing every day.
[00:10:53] Rory: On the beach. Surfing was big. Surfing was a sport in our high school.
[00:10:55] Jake: Yeah. You could, you could go to school- How many Rorys did you know in high school?
[00:10:57] Rory: How many what, sorry?
[00:10:58] Jake: Rorys did you know in high school?
[00:10:59] Rory: [00:11:00] Four.
[00:11:00] Jake: Four. Yeah. All right. Tell us what, like a normal Tuesday, you wake up, what is your day like?
[00:11:07] Rory: In Perth?
[00:11:08] Jake: No, here in New York. Oh, in New York. Yeah, yeah. What do you, what do you like to do here?
[00:11:11] Rory: I'm, I'm a workaholic, man. I, yeah, I wake up, the first thing I do is I check all my coding agents, check GitHub, check all the pull requests, check Slack.
[00:11:17] Rory: Like on your,
[00:11:18] Jake: in your bed-
[00:11:19] Rory: Yes. Yeah ...
[00:11:19] Jake: like on your phone?
[00:11:20] Rory: Quite literally. And I actually built a thing- What time? Oh, I wake up around like 6:45-ish. I do, I'm into like- Okay. .. the early morning run club- And where do you live? .. kind of scene. West Village. Okay. Um- So you, s- 6:45 wake up,
[00:11:27] Jake: West Village with everyone else.
[00:11:28] Jake: Yeah. I'm a morning person in denial, 'cause I used to be such a night owl. Yeah. And I became a [00:11:30] morning person over the last two years,
[00:11:31] Rory: and I'm
[00:11:36] Rory: still in denial about it, like it doesn't feel-
[00:11:38] Jake: No, I, I think Saj and I are looking forward to that. I, I, I think we both acknowledge that our lifestyles are not conducive to- ... how successful we could be. But we're gonna age into it. Hell yeah. We're tw-
[00:11:49] Rory: we're 26. Let's go.
[00:11:50] Jake: Right? Like I feel like- Yeah ... I'm ready to be 36 and fucking- It's, it's
[00:11:53] Rory: happening.
[00:11:53] Jake: Yeah Friday night in, run club on Saturday morning
[00:11:57] Rory: I
[00:11:57] Jake: built a- You're like, "No." [00:12:00]
[00:12:00] Rory: I'm very bad at, uh, getting out of bed and not going straight into work mode. Like, I immediately just- Yeah, me too ... clock into it. But, um, it's so addictive. And then I'll, yeah, typically work, take a quick gym break over lunch, and then work until I go to bed.
[00:12:11] Rory: Yeah. I, like, during the week I have, like, no life at all. But-
[00:12:14] Jake: And what does the workday look like?
[00:12:15] Rory: Yeah, founder life is weird. I think, like, you guys would get this. It-- A lot of the stuff I do doesn't look like a job at all. Yeah. Like, it's like I have to go to this dinner party because a company we might be doing a partnership with might have someone there, and then I can meet them and then we can talk.
[00:12:27] Jake: Right.
[00:12:28] Rory: And, like, that doesn't look like [00:12:30] work, but, like, it is. It's 100%, like, it's a huge part of it. Like, can you get to that person or this person or whatever for, like, various partnership things. And so a lot of, like, a lot of what I'm doing is just, like, whatever the company needs most that day.
[00:12:40] Sajag: Mm.
[00:12:40] Rory: And it's rarely the same thing.
[00:12:42] Rory: It'll be like- Right ... oh my God, today we, like, desperately need this particular thing gotten to this particular person. We need to, like, find out a way to get to them. And then the next day it's like, well, actually today we just need someone to go through the new terms and conditions that our lawyer made and, like, make sure they're good.
[00:12:54] Rory: And it's always just whatever is on the plate that day. Yeah. And there's always something. I've never had a day where I've woken up and gone, "Oh, [00:13:00] there's no fires to put out." We're not at that stage yet, but- Yeah. I think- ... there's always a fire.
[00:13:03] Jake: I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like in business it's really nice to be nimble and just to have, like, your days fill itself out-
[00:13:09] Rory: Yeah
[00:13:10] Jake: by tasks.
[00:13:11] Rory: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's nice. I, I love the founder life because it's always different. Um, there's always something to do, and it, it doesn't feel like we're just... Like when I was at Apple, it was like I cared about one thing, made that one number go off, and that was it, and just working on that one thing.
[00:13:24] Rory: Yeah. And now I'm like this, I'm caring about far too many things.
[00:13:27] Jake: First of all, I think that question only exists in New York City. What do you [00:13:30] do? Like, you go out to a bar, a girl asks you, "Where do you live? What do you do?"
[00:13:33] Rory: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:34] Jake: So is that what you say, you're a founder?
[00:13:36] Rory: I say miscellaneous tech shit
[00:13:38] Jake: What
[00:13:39] Rory: a, what
[00:13:39] Jake: a girl asks.
[00:13:39] Rory: Yeah. What do you, what do you put
[00:13:40] Jake: on your, what do you put on your Hinge?
[00:13:42] Rory: Uh, it says co-founder, CTO.
[00:13:44] Jake: Okay. Of course.
[00:13:44] Rory: Um, but I... If someone asks me in real life, I say miscellaneous tech shit.
[00:13:48] Jake: Yeah.
[00:13:49] Rory: And because I know, 'cause the conversation either goes one of two ways. They go, "Oh, that's fascinating. I wanna know everything about what you're doing.
[00:13:54] Rory: Are you a founder?" Yeah. "What are you building?" Blah, blah, blah. Or they go, "Oh, yeah?" And then it moves on. And then if it's that camp, then I [00:14:00] haven't rattled them and pitched them and, you know- Yeah ... some, some of them, they're very interested and then they double down. I'm like, "Well, I co-founded this thing." And yeah.
[00:14:05] Sajag: I've lived in so many different cities. I feel like in Chicago, if you tell somebody you run a business, it means you're unemployed and you live in your mom's basement. In California, if you say, "I'm a founder, I run a business, I'm an entrepreneur," it means you do DoorDash. And then in New York, it's like the only city where it actually means something.
[00:14:21] Sajag: Because, like, Manhattan is so expensive, you come here and you're like, "I'm an entrepreneur," it actually means something.
[00:14:26] Rory: There is so- it is something nice to be said, uh, about [00:14:30] living in the part of Manhattan that I live in, that almost everyone I meet, like, they have to have a good job- Yeah ... to be living there.
[00:14:35] Rory: Yeah. And so, like, most people... But the way I think about it is not actually like a financial exclusion. I, I think about it in a more optimistic sense, which is like everyone I've met in Manhattan is living their dream, and I love that. Yeah.
[00:14:44] Jake: Yeah.
[00:14:45] Rory: I love that. Everyone I talk to, like, they wanna tell you what they do because they love it, they make good money doing it, and they're, like, very passionate about it.
[00:14:50] Rory: It's super competitive. And if they weren't, they wouldn't be living here. Yeah. And so everyone's living their dream and they all wanna tell you.
[00:14:55] Sajag: Right.
[00:14:55] Rory: And, um, you're right, it's one of the only cities in the world where it's people aren't offended when you wanna talk [00:15:00] about work. Whereas in a lot of other cities, you're like, "What do you do?"
[00:15:01] Rory: It's like, it's, it's a cheap, boring question. In New York, people's eyes light off and they wanna tell you.
[00:15:06] Jake: Yeah. And
[00:15:06] Rory: I love that aspect of the city. Like, everyone's very passionate.
[00:15:09] Jake: It's funny 'cause as an athlete you're taught- to not associate your identity with what you do to separate. In New York, it drives that so close, and you see how people have, like, a toxic relationship with that sometimes.
[00:15:19] Jake: Yeah. But I like how you're articulating it, because that's how I feel. It's like, no, you should be prideful in what you do. Yeah. You should
[00:15:25] Sajag: be proud. 100%, or it's probably a sign to, to get out. Rory, so you're, you're CTO [00:15:30] of Checkmate, right? And, uh, before you were a software engineer at Apple. H- how did that happen?
[00:15:35] Sajag: By the way, those sound like the same job to me.
[00:15:39] Rory: Well, so my path is super abnormal. I, um, I did engineering undergrad, law post-grad, like JD, and then I did a master's-
[00:15:45] Sajag: Did you go to school for coding? Like
[00:15:47] Rory: computer science? Uh, sort of. Uh, the coding we did was, like, Python with number sets.
[00:15:52] Sajag: Okay.
[00:15:53] Rory: Um, and so like-
[00:15:53] Sajag: So like more like data?
[00:15:54] Rory: It was like a lot of data stuff. The, the, the like high level like software engineering stuff I had to like learn on the job, which I think for a lot of [00:16:00] people is the case. They like... 'Cause computer science is not software engineering by any means. They're like very, actually very different subjects and very different interests.
[00:16:07] Rory: Computer science is fascinating. Software engineering is like, "Can we build it?" Uh, but I did engineering and then law. Thought I wanted to be a lawyer. Was at a law firm for a bit.
[00:16:15] Jake: Where were you living at the time?
[00:16:17] Rory: Western Australia. It is not on the global map for a lot of stuff, but it is like the global tier one for the mining and oil and gas industries.
[00:16:24] Rory: Like it, it really- Okay ... like that's where I, I'm pretty sure it's either Woodside or Chevron has their- About to be epicenter.
[00:16:28] Jake: That could make
[00:16:28] Rory: sense. Yeah. I, I can't remember if [00:16:30] it's Woodside or Chevron, but their global headquarters is in Perth. Mm. There is so much money in Perth in the natural resources game.
[00:16:36] Rory: Oh, wow. And because of that, there's all these derivative effects. But 99% of what you're doing there, like if you're at Deloitte in Perth, your clients are BHP, Rio Tinto, Woodside, Chevron, right? If you're a lawyer in Perth, you're representing mining companies. Like if you're at a hedge fund, all of your clients are the big mining and oil and gas families.
[00:16:51] Rory: Like that is just the industry there. And so leaving Perth and you're sort of like, well, it's, it, it was so cool for me going to LA where I'm like, you can meet someone who like actually is [00:17:00] an actor. Yeah. You know? And that like if you're an actor in Perth, you, you've gone. And there's a lot of successful actors and musicians who like, like Tame Impala went to my high school, right?
[00:17:07] Rory: Like a lot of great people- That's really cool. That's, that's crazy ... have come out of Perth and gone on and done amazing things.
[00:17:10] Sajag: Was he in your year or?
[00:17:11] Rory: He was five years above me. Um, and he used to dominate the Battle of the Bands.
[00:17:16] Sajag: Yeah, bet.
[00:17:16] Rory: Kevin, Kevin Parker, incredible musician. But a- but at the time he was just like Kevin Parker from Perth, you know?
[00:17:21] Rory: Yeah. And everyone was like, "Yeah, he's got his guitar." For 2
[00:17:24] Sajag: million people in Perth, I
[00:17:25] Rory: mean, we're... Perth is really mincing, mincing some people out here.
[00:17:29] Jake: It's cool.
[00:17:29] Rory: We've, [00:17:30] yeah, we've had some good stuff come out. We had like the-
[00:17:31] Jake: Yeah. I feel like it's a very attractive city too, right?
[00:17:33] Rory: It's beautiful there.
[00:17:34] Rory: It's really beautiful.
[00:17:35] Jake: Like from the, the people are all very attractive.
[00:17:38] Rory: Everyone I grew up with is gorgeous.
[00:17:39] Jake: Yeah.
[00:17:40] Rory: Like actually gorgeous. But I think that's the reality of a coastal town. You have to be- Yeah, I agree ... because you're at the beach like- We
[00:17:44] Jake: talk about that all the time. It's like- ...
[00:17:45] Rory: six months a year.
[00:17:46] Jake: you actually have to like try here. When you're in California or anywhere with sun, you don't have to try to be healthy.
[00:17:50] Rory: Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:52] Jake: Like it's just, it's natural.
[00:17:52] Rory: Yeah, it naturally happens. We have the... He's like the most famous guy who's not famous. Um, the main dude from Avatar, Sam [00:18:00] Worthington, is also from Perth.
[00:18:01] Rory: And like, it's one of those guys, like you see his face and you're like, "That guy, the Avatar guy." But I feel like I, I don't hear his name much outside of like the Avatar franchise. But I hope his career is like thriving. I just, I don't know much about him. But, um, shout out to Perth. We're, we're on the map.
[00:18:13] Rory: Yeah. You don't wanna go- Danny Ricciardo, Perth boy out there crushing the F1. I think he's retired now, but uh, he was doing well for a bit as well. But-
[00:18:20] Jake: That's sweet.
[00:18:21] Rory: Yeah. So sick.
[00:18:22] Jake: My dad's from Pasadena, California. My mother is, uh, from New York So I feel like we can relate. Yeah. 'Cause like I like, I, I- We're coastal
[00:18:29] Jake: my [00:18:30] dad's a surfer, like I was a surfer. He's a chef, he's a hippie.
[00:18:32] Rory: My dad was like a legit hippie for a minute there. Oh, yeah? So the Rajneeshee movement.
[00:18:36] Jake: What is that?
[00:18:37] Rory: Um, so he was like an Indian, uh, prophet, I think is the term. And, um, there was a big movement, I think it was the '70s, I'm pretty sure, uh, that went around the world, and it culminated in like a compound in Oregon.
[00:18:50] Rory: Um, and there was just thousands of people traveling to like listen to this guy, Osho, and what he had to say- Really? ... about the world. And, uh, he was like a huge celebrity at the time, and there was an off- offshoot of that in Western [00:19:00] Australia, and they all wore, uh, purple. It was sort of like the-
[00:19:03] Jake: Okay, so where's the line-
[00:19:04] Jake: the purple people ... between hippie and cult?
[00:19:06] Rory: This was definitely a cult, and there's- ... there's a Netflix, Netflix doc on it that's, that's incredible called "Wild Country."
[00:19:12] Sajag: I feel like we ebb and flow here, you know? So like religion used to be like a big thing, then for some time it's like not a very big thing.
[00:19:19] Jake: I think it's back right
[00:19:20] Sajag: now. But it's coming back now. There's like- I think it's huge
[00:19:22] Jake: right
[00:19:22] Sajag: now ... there's a
[00:19:22] Jake: hot people church.
[00:19:24] Sajag: People are just going there to date now.
[00:19:25] Jake: Dude. You know? Yeah. There's other- So Jack calls me and he goes, "You wanna go to church?" I'm Jewish, uh, my dad's [00:19:30] Christian, and I'm like, "Why, why are you going?
[00:19:33] Jake: I don't..." "What, what, asking me?" He's like, "Dude, I think, um, I think there'd be some nice women to meet there." This is true. And I'm like, "I don't know if that's good. I don't know." I don't know, but I don't know.
[00:19:42] Rory: I don't think that's happening. I do think that there was a void that spirituality, like, 'cause it did fade out for a minute.
[00:19:45] Rory: I, I, I agree it's on the comeback, and there was a void in society that it left, and people are yearning for spiritual stuff. Yeah. I actually think it's like, it's so back.
[00:19:53] Sajag: Yeah. I feel like you need like- Agreed ... direction with every, the way the world's going, you have AI taking everybody's job. Yeah. Like you need some, you need some [00:20:00] direction.
[00:20:00] Sajag: I mean, therapy-
[00:20:00] Jake: You
[00:20:00] Sajag: need some spirituality ...
[00:20:01] Jake: therapy wasn't doing it, the drugs weren't doing it.
[00:20:03] Sajag: Yeah, yeah.
[00:20:03] Jake: Right? Like everyone's getting so overwhelmed by-
[00:20:05] Rory: Well, now
[00:20:06] Jake: it's church ... all, by all, all this technology. I think, uh, yeah, I agree with that. Yeah.
[00:20:10] Rory: The
[00:20:10] Jake: pope
[00:20:11] Rory: banned using ChatGPT for Catholic sermons. Yeah.
[00:20:14] Rory: And so the churches- Why were people
[00:20:15] Jake: using it?
[00:20:16] Rory: I- the priests were making their sermons in ChatGPT. Oh, okay. And he, and he was like, "No more." That's so funny. It must come from the... Um, to go back to the question you originally asked, so I- Yeah ... I went across this hedge fund for a bit. It was super fun. We were actually doing the stuff that-- There, [00:20:30] there was a lot of podcasts about this at the time, but like buying imagery, buying imagery from planet.com and using that to trade.
[00:20:36] Rory: Uh, and so, uh, the example that was always online was like you could buy images of oil tanks and see how fill, how full they were based on the shadow floating in the oil tank, and then go- Mm-hmm ... and buy oil futures, predicting the supply and demand of oil based on the actual reserves in the country.
[00:20:49] Sajag: Oh, wow.
[00:20:50] Rory: And we had a more intricate model where we were doing iron ore in China, looking at railroads, and, um, you could predict that a railroad was gonna be built. There was very limited people supplying iron ore out of Australia to China. [00:21:00] You could go and buy stock in those companies before the next contract was announced, and it was a really good, uh, really good play.
[00:21:05] Rory: I don't know if it still works. This is 2018. Um, it might still work, but many years later, I met Kevin Weil in San Francisco who He was the CPO of OpenAI, but before that he was the president of Planet.com, um, or at least on the board. I forget what his actual role was there. He was very involved in Planet.com, and I was like, "Dude, we were the guys buying the satellite imagery," and he was like, "No way."
[00:21:25] Rory: 'Cause, uh, they had a, they had a real thing going there for a minute, but it was a fascinating space. [00:21:30] And then, um, I wrote a paper while I was there on, uh, flow cytometry, which is like a... It's a way of measuring particles as they move individually through a cell. And so y- we were trying to calculate, um, blood-based bacterial infection, uh, using flow cytometry and machine learning, and machine learning was, like, a hot topic at the time.
[00:21:47] Rory: It wasn't called AI yet. It was like we were using, like, random forests and, like, algorithms like that. And, uh, I- the number set got so large I had to use this thing called Spark. And I remember I, I made a LinkedIn and I was [00:22:00] like, "LinkedIn is stupid. I don't want a LinkedIn." But like, it- this is 2018, like, no one wants a LinkedIn.
[00:22:04] Rory: It was just like the, the lamest platform. It still is. Um, but you could put up skills.
[00:22:09] Sajag: We're gonna be posting this on LinkedIn.
[00:22:12] Rory: You could put skills on your LinkedIn, right? I think you still can. Yeah, yeah. I've never logged
[00:22:15] Sajag: in. The skills on LinkedIn I feel like is like the most useless thing ever. Well- I love LinkedIn
[00:22:20] Rory: well, so I put this skill up- I was- ... saying that I know Spark, this like programming language.
[00:22:25] Sajag: Yeah.
[00:22:25] Rory: And I get this cold DM from a random guy in Cupertino, [00:22:30] California.
[00:22:30] Sajag: Is this how you ended up in Apple?
[00:22:31] Rory: This is how I ended up at Apple. And he goes, "Oh, we actually, like I represent a large tech company in Cupertino."
[00:22:36] Rory: I'm like, "What the fuck?" A large tech
[00:22:37] Sajag: company.
[00:22:37] Rory: Yeah. And uh, and he's like, "Well, we need someone to work on the iPhone like right now who knows Spark. Like would you wanna come and work at Apple?" And um, and well, come and work at this company. So absolutely.
[00:22:50] Sajag: Apple, Apple likes people with untraditional backgrounds, right?
[00:22:53] Rory: They do. They do. Yeah. And they, they like... I had a whole background in the music industry before this, and they liked that because a lot of what they do is they want like, uh, [00:23:00] quantitative thinkers who have creative mindsets.
[00:23:01] Sajag: Mm.
[00:23:01] Rory: Interesting. And um, then they made me an offer to come and work on the iPhone and uh, I was like, sweet.
[00:23:05] Rory: It's like the, the, the most successful consumer product ever in the history of humankind.
[00:23:10] Sajag: Yeah.
[00:23:10] Rory: Um, the most profitable product in history. And I was like, what better place to learn and cut my teeth in the engineering world? And so in 2019 I flew out and moved to California and, uh, it was great. From Australia.
[00:23:20] Rory: From Australia.
[00:23:20] Jake: That's so
[00:23:22] Rory: crazy. Yeah. Been out here ever since.
[00:23:23] Jake: How did you like San Francisco?
[00:23:24] Rory: Loved.
[00:23:25] Jake: Yeah?
[00:23:25] Rory: Loved. Yeah. It gets a bad rap, but uh, I absolutely thrived [00:23:30] there. I think like everyone you meet is just a cracked genius, like everyone in that city. And uh, and just so many of the world's smartest people were there, and you can meet them and it's so easy to meet them.
[00:23:40] Rory: You just go to like house parties and they're there and they're hanging out. And like part of the reason I moved to the US, I wanted to build companies, and everyone I met that I would say that to, like if I told people that in Australia, they'd be like kind of disbelieving. They're like-
[00:23:50] Sajag: Yeah ... "
[00:23:51] Rory: Good luck."
[00:23:51] Rory: You know? Like- Yeah ... no one builds companies in, in Perth. It's not really a thing. Right, right. Good luck.
[00:23:55] Sajag: Like- It's like you're gonna be in your mom's basement. Yeah,
[00:23:56] Rory: yeah. And then I would say that to someone in San Francisco and they're like, [00:24:00] "Oh yeah, do it. Yeah, you should start like today. Also I can give you like 10 venture capital intros and also here's three guys building in your space.
[00:24:04] Rory: I'll send you out for coffee with them." Like everyone was so supportive.
[00:24:07] Sajag: Yeah.
[00:24:07] Rory: And um,
[00:24:08] Sajag: so- That's one, that's one thing I noticed too because I was in the e-commerce space before I started a tech company, and in e-commerce everybody is like very close-minded, like especially for Amazon. Uh, because everybody doesn't wanna share their products, they don't wanna share their secrets.
[00:24:22] Sajag: Uh, so no one's like very helpful and everybody's like very protective. And then I went into tech and everybody's like, "Oh, let me introduce you to this person. Oh, you should do this. Let me [00:24:30] like help you with this. Let me help you with this." And I'm like, "This is so weird." Like why does everybody wanna be so helpful?
[00:24:35] Rory: It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. I think it, it feels like a less competitive space because it's very rare that the person you meet is like going for the exact same client as you for the same contract. Like it's more like let's all rise the tide together. Yeah. Also like- I'm very liberal with intros. I'm happy to intro people to people in my network and vice versa because everyone did that for me.
[00:24:51] Rory: Yeah.
[00:24:51] Sajag: Exactly.
[00:24:51] Rory: When I was first starting out- You gotta pay back ... everyone, everyone did it for me. Yes. Yeah. I'm happy to do it for people, and, um, and we all grow and network together, and it's great. It's so rare. Like none of us needs Uber. Nobody in [00:25:00] SF
[00:25:00] Jake: can really socialize.
[00:25:02] Sajag: So- Hey, that's, that's why you need intros.
[00:25:04] Sajag: Like please meet
[00:25:05] Rory: friend. Friend, please meet other friend. I do remember seeing this tweet. Like I love, I love the sort of like autism underculture in San Francisco. It's so funny. And there was this tweet a little while ago that was like-
[00:25:14] Jake: That's the investment thesis, let's be honest.
[00:25:16] Rory: Yeah. There was a tweet a little while ago that was like, "Yo, we came up with this concept where like on a Friday night we just have like people to our apartment, and we just like talk and stuff."
[00:25:25] Rory: And the top comment was like, "Bro, you just invented having a party." Like what are you talking about? Like- Bro [00:25:30] invented
[00:25:30] Sajag: in real life
[00:25:31] Rory: hangout. San Francisco tech bros invent having a party. Like this is like crazy. Yeah, yeah. But like that is true.
[00:25:34] Sajag: It's like how Uber came full circle and invented the bus.
[00:25:38] Rory: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, literally. You know about
[00:25:39] Sajag: that?
[00:25:40] Rory: The Uber shuttles. I see them going around.
[00:25:41] Sajag: Yeah, yeah.
[00:25:42] Rory: Yeah. I, I saw one going to the airport the other day, and I was like, "That's a good idea."
[00:25:45] Sajag: Like actually the bus. I don't know why that doesn't take off. Yeah.
[00:25:47] Jake: I mean, they just did public transit's job a little bit better.
[00:25:50] Sajag: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you mentioned, uh, for a second, right, you were like, "Okay, hey, you know, you- Apple likes people that are a little creative," and you have a music background.
[00:25:59] Jake: I
[00:25:59] Sajag: do. [00:26:00] And that's like a- Yeah, I can- ... super untraditional thing. I wanna talk about that.
[00:26:03] Jake: Like- So confusing. Like I, I imagine you're, you're, you're some- beautiful women in a West Village bar and you meet Rory and you're trying to explain what you do.
[00:26:11] Jake: It's
[00:26:11] Rory: like, "Yeah, I have a JD.
[00:26:13] Jake: I'm a tech founder." She must think you're lying. She's probably like, "Who is... Like, this guy must be full of shit."
[00:26:17] Rory: I'm grateful I have
[00:26:18] Jake: a fun background. Just sounds like nepotism when you, when you read the background. You're like, "There's no way."
[00:26:22] Rory: My parents are amazing people, um, but I went into very different industries to them and they, uh, they've never opened a door for me, but they're amazing people.
[00:26:29] Jake: What is their [00:26:30] background?
[00:26:30] Rory: Well, so Dad is, like, a career lawyer. Okay. And then Mom, uh, she was, like, a heritage PhD art his- art history. That's so smart. And now she's a novelist.
[00:26:37] Jake: Smart folks. Wow.
[00:26:38] Rory: Um, so they're, they're, uh, incredibly clever people. Um, but I, I've never been able to have a career door opened by them, um, 'cause I just went down a- Yeah, I mean, their networks
[00:26:45] Jake: are-
[00:26:45] Rory: a different world. Um ... a little different as well.
[00:26:47] Sajag: Right, tell us about your music background. So how did this happen? You started making remixes, right? In your, like, childhood home. Is that, is that right?
[00:26:54] Rory: Yeah, so okay. So I was probably, like, nine and I downloaded Fruity Loops. [00:27:00] Which actually- What is that? ... this is like, it's the same way that so many people who cracked into EDM, like, started.
[00:27:05] Rory: Like, you download Fruity Loops, it used to be called at the time. They rebranded to FL Studio. Um, downloaded Fruity Loops and, uh, just started making beats. And I would just go to, like, primary school and high school and give out little mixed CDs of just, like, beats I'd made. Wait, wait. And I was trying to make trance.
[00:27:18] Sajag: Wait, wait. You were, you were- What's that? ... the guy in high school handing out CDs like- Literally. Literally ... were, were you charging people after?
[00:27:25] Rory: No, no. It was just like, it was like, "Yo, I made a mixtape." But it was just, like, my friend group. Like, I wasn't, like- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... at school, like, peddling.
[00:27:29] Sajag: Have you, [00:27:30] have you seen- It's awesome
[00:27:30] Sajag: like, you walk on the streets and some dude fucking gives you a mixtape- Especially in Venice Beach ... and then he's like, "Oh, $20." Yeah, yeah. It's like, "You
[00:27:35] Rory: gave this
[00:27:35] Sajag: to me. I didn't
[00:27:36] Rory: ask for
[00:27:36] Sajag: this."
[00:27:37] Rory: Especially Venice Beach, that happens a lot. Yeah. Um, but I was just like, I was trying to make trance music, and like trance was like, I was like nine years old- Okay
[00:27:44] Rory: and I was like, "Trance is cool." That's cool. And so I was burning these, like, CDs of MP3s, giving them out to friends, and they'd come back to school the next day and they'd be like, "You put 10 tracks in there and nine of them sucked, but this one track was all right." I'd be like, "What was it about that one track that was all right?"
[00:27:57] Rory: You know? And then I'd make a few versions of that. And I just [00:28:00] kept going. Eventually I moved to Ableton Live, which I think, like, that's where everyone- That's the
[00:28:03] Sajag: graduation,
[00:28:04] Rory: yeah ... the, the industry kind of moved there. And I think the, the industry has stayed there. It's sort of like the, it's like the one, you know?
[00:28:09] Rory: Um, started cooking up stuff in Ableton. I was like- Well, I wanna say 19 or 20, and I put some tracks on SoundCloud, uh, under the name Elk Road, and I- I
[00:28:20] Sajag: have your songs. Uh, it's in my liked tracks- Yeah ... SoundCloud, just so.
[00:28:24] Rory: Thank you. Um, and I put up this remix of, um, uh... Actually, there was a [00:28:30] few that popped off.
[00:28:30] Rory: I put up a Britney Spears remix of "Toxic" on SoundCloud-
[00:28:33] Jake: Mm ...
[00:28:33] Rory: that went ballistic overnight, and Britney's team messaged me about it, which was cool. Like, their, their management was like, "We like this." Is that- So it- ... Britney's, Britney's
[00:28:40] Jake: team?
[00:28:40] Rory: Yeah, like her manager. But, um, yeah, but Britney's team found out. They liked it.
[00:28:44] Rory: They- there was no takedown notice. Also, like, SoundCloud was more chill at the time. Yeah. You could put up remixes or bootlegs of stuff, and, like, it wasn't, like, immediate takedown. The only artist that- Now it's immediate takedown? Sorry?
[00:28:53] Sajag: Now it's immediate takedown
[00:28:54] Rory: on SoundCloud? For, like, copyrighted content, yeah.
[00:28:55] Rory: Oh. 'Cause, 'cause SoundCloud wasn't monetizing at the time.
[00:28:58] Sajag: Yeah,
[00:28:58] Rory: I see it. And so you could just... It was like the Wild West. You could just [00:29:00] upload, like, bootlegs and, like- Such a great era ... it was sick. And, uh, and I put up a remix of The xx, and that was the only one that got a takedown notice. XL Records, like, took it down immediately, which sucked, 'cause that remix was fire.
[00:29:11] Rory: Um, but it was pretty decent episode. We're, we're gonna play it here.
[00:29:13] Jake: That's one- We're not monetizing. That's... Remember, like, Major Lazer on SoundCloud going- Yeah. Oh.
[00:29:18] Rory: It was such a good era.
[00:29:19] Jake: Yeah.
[00:29:20] Rory: Uh, and it was so easy to go viral on SoundCloud at the time. Like, there was just these, like, repost channels, and you could, like, just message them and they would...
[00:29:26] Rory: There was all these, like, big music blogs, and if they just reposted you, you would get 200,000 plays [00:29:30] overnight.
[00:29:30] Sajag: Yep.
[00:29:30] Rory: And I just kept pulling this off. Like, every week, I was just dropping a new track every Friday, and just kept pulling this off. And, um,
[00:29:37] Sajag: I- This was, like, back in the day when, like, no one DJed.
[00:29:40] Sajag: Now- Now everybody's a DJ. How old, how old were you at
[00:29:44] Rory: this time? So I, I think I was 21- Okay ... uh, when I, when I started taking this seriously. Um-
[00:29:47] Sajag: College?
[00:29:48] Rory: Uh, yeah, I was in, I was in first-year law school, actually. I'd just finished college. First-year law school. And, uh- Lawyer,
[00:29:52] Sajag: DJing by night.
[00:29:54] Rory: And, uh, so I put up, um- I put up a remix of, uh, [00:30:00] Carmada, which was like an Australian group at the time, and it was on Owsla, which is Skrillex's record label.
[00:30:04] Rory: And then Skrillex put it in a playlist called Skrillex Selects, which was like his, like highlight. It was like getting posted by Skrillex, right? Yeah. The SoundCloud equivalent. And, um, overnight, I woke up the next morning and I had like hundreds of thousands of new plays on all the tracks. It was crazy.
[00:30:19] Rory: And I had all these random DMs from like manager bros and agent bros, right? And I didn't even know this world at all. I was like, I didn't know the difference between a manager and an agent. Like, I had no idea, like what was the difference between a record label and [00:30:30] a publisher. Like, it was all like totally foreign to me.
[00:30:32] Rory: And there's all these guys in the DMs being like, "I manage this guy and this guy and this guy," and like, they were all like so LA. It was like, "This is lit." Name drop, name drop, name drop. They're like, "Are you in LA or New York? We can see you." And I'm like, "I'm in Perth." And they're like, "Fuck." They're like, "What
[00:30:43] Sajag: is that?"
[00:30:43] Rory: Yeah. Yeah, they're like, "What do we do with that? Fuck." And um, but there was this one guy, this guy Dom, who lived in Sydney, and he wa- like all these other bros were making like big ass promises. They're like, "We're gonna blow you up. You're gonna be huge." And, and Dom was just like, "I like your stuff. I'm starting a [00:31:00] management company.
[00:31:00] Rory: I have a few artists that are already on radio. Like, I'm gonna fly you to Sydney and we're just gonna bond and get to know each other." And he flew me out and, um, and he was like, "Look, here's the plan. We'll get you on Triple J," which is all that matters in Australia. Uh, d- definitely at the time it was all that mattered for breaking it.
[00:31:13] Rory: "We get your music on Triple J and then from there we get you radio play." What is Triple
[00:31:16] Jake: J radio station?
[00:31:17] Rory: Yeah, so Triple J, like, uh, it's kind of, it's sort of like the BBC Radio 1 of Australia. Okay. And so they're responsible for... Like, they have a quota of Australian music that they have to play And every single Australian artist that's made it out of Australia almost certainly [00:31:30] started on Triple J.
[00:31:30] Rory: So examples are like Tame Impala, Rufus, Lorde is not Australian, but we totally claim her. Like Lorde started on Triple J. How does that
[00:31:37] Sajag: work?
[00:31:37] Rory: Oh, like she's New Zealand.
[00:31:39] Sajag: Okay.
[00:31:39] Rory: Uh, so like- Same, same thing ... it's, it's Australasia. Same thing, yeah. Like, yeah, Triple J- Yeah ... covers all of it. Um-
[00:31:43] Sajag: The, the animals are the same.
[00:31:44] Rory: Yeah.
[00:31:44] Sajag: The spiders are the same. Yeah. It's basically the same place. I know. No camels in New Zealand either.
[00:31:52] Rory: Uh, and so like it was known at the time, it's like you wanna make it in, in music, like do what Don Dada's doing and stuff, like you have to get Triple J to support you because- Yeah ... [00:32:00] they would play, they would play it on Triple J, it would go on the Triple J Spotify.
[00:32:03] Rory: From there it would get picked up by England and America, and then you would have the chance to like go on tour. And the big guy coming up at the time from Australia was Flume. And so this was like 2013, and Flume had just dropped "Holding On," and, uh, there was another track, the, the, the- Damn ... Tennis Court remix.
[00:32:17] Rory: And Triple J were just rinsing these tracks like five times a day. And then from there it was going to YouTube and Spotify, and then he was like going overseas. And, um, and so they took my track in... Well, actually w- we went to Sony, and Sony agreed to, to back [00:32:30] the project and they, they gave me a record deal.
[00:32:31] Rory: And-
[00:32:31] Sajag: You went on tour, right?
[00:32:33] Rory: Yeah, yeah. And then I, I signed with an agent. 200
[00:32:35] Sajag: festivals or something?
[00:32:36] Rory: I played a lot, yeah. I played a lot of shows in Australia. Um- And how old were,
[00:32:39] Jake: were you then?
[00:32:40] Rory: Probably 23,
[00:32:41] Jake: 24. Oh, my Lord.
[00:32:42] Rory: And, uh, I signed with this agent called Sam Walt, uh, at WME.
[00:32:45] Jake: Yeah.
[00:32:46] Rory: And, um, Sam's roster was- I worked,
[00:32:47] Jake: uh, as a baseball agent at Excel Sports.
[00:32:49] Rory: WME are fantastic. Yeah. He had an incredible roster of artists. So like he'd be like doing my tour, then he's also like doing Calvin Harris's tour at the same time, like this kind of stuff. And, um, and he [00:33:00] would ring me and say things like, "Hey, do you wanna like open for like Porter Robinson, like go on their tour?"
[00:33:03] Rory: And I'm like, "Yes. Obviously, let's go." So Sam was like incredible guy and, and started getting me on all these shows. Um, and then so this was all boiling up, and we had all the remixes popping off. I wrote this first original called "Not To Worry," and, uh, Sony took it into Triple J and it, it's like the make or break.
[00:33:19] Rory: Like it was almost like an unspoken thing where it was like if Triple J doesn't like it, then they literally just move on to the next project. Like there is no plan B- Wow ... in the, the Australian music industry in the 2010s, which is crazy to think about. There's no plan B.
[00:33:29] Jake: There's no [00:33:30] distribution other than JJJ.
[00:33:31] Rory: Yeah, literally. Yeah. It's nuts. And, uh, and they went in and Richard Kingsmill, who was running the A&R at the station at the time, was like, "We like this track. We think this is a cool project. We'll play the track." And then they played it a fuckload. Like they played that song so many times, and I... Every time, 'cause Shazam was like really big at the time, the Shazam charts really mattered.
[00:33:48] Rory: It kept going up the viral chart and stuff, and I was like, "Fuck, this is like actually happening." And um, and then they picked up like the next like six tracks in a row that I wrote, and they just kept rinsing them. And every time they would pick up a new track, there was like a premiere and it [00:34:00] would like, that would ripple onto Twitter- Yeah
[00:34:01] Rory: that would ripple onto Spotify, and it would all like spread. Um-
[00:34:03] Jake: What was going through your head at this time, right? Yeah, you- You're making money, you're 23 or 24 years old- Yeah, this is like- ... traveling the world.
[00:34:07] Rory: I was just having fun. Every 23-year-old
[00:34:08] Jake: sky's dream, right? Yeah,
[00:34:10] Rory: like- Really grateful. It was, it was as fun as it sounds.
[00:34:13] Rory: Yeah. And, and, uh, I, I mean, I got to like go to like a lot of the world's coolest festivals, meet really famous people. They're all really lovely. It's a friendly environment.
[00:34:22] Sajag: This is, this is what I was saying. His Instagram is, is fucking way more curated. Yeah. You know, when you see a Scrillex- No wonder DM are successful.
[00:34:27] Sajag: Yeah. The, this man can [00:34:30] DM anybody.
[00:34:32] Rory: It was, it was really fun. Um, I mean, like some, some, like, crazy memories from that era, like as an example. So Skrillex and Jack- Scr- Skrillex and Diplo made a project called Jack Ü in, I think- Of course. Love that song ... 2014 or 2015. Isn't that with Justin Bieber on
[00:34:44] Jake: that
[00:34:44] Rory: too?
[00:34:44] Rory: Yeah.
[00:34:44] Jake: Yeah.
[00:34:44] Rory: Yeah. And the very first- What's up? ... show they ever did together as Jack Ü was at Home Nightclub in Sydney. Mm. And Dom and Sam rang me like five hours beforehand, and they were like, "Yo, like this is happening tonight. No one knows." 'Cause it was booked as a, a Skrillex show. And they were like, "It's just, it's meant to be a [00:35:00] Skrillex gig, but he's gonna bring out Diplo halfway through the show."
[00:35:02] Rory: Oh, shit. "And then they're gonna be like, 'This is our new thing,' and everyone's gonna go fucking nuts. And do you wanna go on stage immediately after them? Like, you're like the, the next act that comes on. Like, you close out the club whatever." That's, that's
[00:35:10] Sajag: some pressure.
[00:35:11] Rory: And I was like- Oh, shit ... like, "You can't say no."
[00:35:13] Rory: I'm like, "Yeah, obviously." Yeah. And so I went back there, and Skrillex's manager, he's like this huge fucking guy. And, um, Skrillex and Diplo put on their last track of the night, and it has like a six-minute outro. And their manager turns to me and he goes, "You're up next." I'm like, "Yeah." And he goes, he goes, [00:35:30] "You are not to touch that CDJ until all six minutes have, like, gone."
[00:35:33] Rory: And so they walk off stage, and then I'm just standing on stage and I'm watching. There's like five and a half minutes left. And then all the crowd's looking at me, and I'm like, "Fuck." And it's just this, like, really long echoey outro from like a trap track that's all like moody and shit. I'm like, "Fuck. Do I do it?
[00:35:47] Rory: I just, like, stood there." And then I was like, I had to like hype the crowd or something. And I'm like, "Yeah, make some noise." Like, everyone's like cheering, but I was like, "Fuck." That was the longest six minutes of my life. It was, like, traumatic.
[00:35:57] Jake: So you just had to stall?
[00:35:59] Rory: Just had to stall.
[00:35:59] Jake: Wa- [00:36:00] And wait. Yeah. So what did you say?
[00:36:02] Jake: Did you just-
[00:36:03] Rory: I think I, I was just like, "Yo." Put on
[00:36:04] Jake: the-- You, you pulled up
[00:36:05] Sajag: the mic-
[00:36:06] Jake: Yeah ... to hype up the crowd?
[00:36:07] Rory: Yeah. I was like, I actually saw him.
[00:36:08] Jake: He's like- That's the last move I would've made. Like, here's another track. Out of-- Yeah, out of all the things you could have done. Like, not to, not to disrespect, but, like, a DJ, I feel like it, it, you know, "Oh, I got five minutes."
[00:36:18] Rory: But you-- I could not, I could not press play. Like, I had to let this track run out, right?
[00:36:22] Jake: Yeah. They said-
[00:36:22] Rory: Um, yeah ... play the whole track He was like, "You cannot, you cannot-" Oh ... "pause this outro." Yeah. And so I had to just run the clock and like- Gotcha ... let it run out. But, um, [00:36:30] looking back, I think it would've been fine if I cut it off like three minutes in.
[00:36:32] Rory: They wouldn't have fucking cared. But- Yeah ... it's just rules. But yeah. But
[00:36:35] Jake: Diplo's, I'm sure Def- Diplo's never been late.
[00:36:37] Rory: Yeah. Well, uh, incredible night. And yeah, so like so many, so many fond memories, and playing music festivals is super fun. And, uh, I'm very happy that I left when I did because COVID started.
[00:36:47] Rory: Like, I left the music industry in like 2018. COVID started, like, pretty quickly afterwards. And, um, all of my friends in music had, like, a really hard time after that, where it was like they had to rebuild their fan bases from scratch because- Really? ... something a lot of people don't [00:37:00] realize about the music industry The, the ticketing market, the, the market of people who like actively goes to shows is usually very young and very...
[00:37:08] Rory: It's very select. It's like a demographic of people who are like- Yeah ... actively out there doing it. And- It turns over ... you need them to bring the next generation in. So like, uh, they- let's say they're like 23, they're bringing their younger brothers and sisters in who are like 18. COVID comes in and pauses everything for like two years, and everyone who was selling a lot of tickets in the music industry almost went back to scratch because they, this flywheel had sort of ended- Right
[00:37:29] Rory: of [00:37:30] like user distribution. They were having to rebuild their fan bases from scratch, and it just sounded like the roughest time ever. So I got out at the right time for me, and, um, and now it's just fond memories. And I, and I got out like while I was still having fun.
[00:37:41] Jake: Do you still enjoy that music in, in...
[00:37:45] Jake: do so in New York? Do-
[00:37:46] Rory: I love music so much.
[00:37:47] Jake: Yeah.
[00:37:48] Rory: I, I'm still deeply into it, not just like the singing it, but like the, the music. Yeah. Where are your spots here? '
[00:37:51] Jake: Cause we're struggling for that right now. Yeah. Where do you go, where do you go
[00:37:53] Rory: out? Oh, I, I haven't been to much live music in general. Okay. Um, but, uh, but I'm still like deeply into like the industry.
[00:37:59] Rory: Okay. [00:38:00] Like I, I love it. Like when, when friends play shows, like I wanna go and like support and like suck it down, but like- I'm sure you
[00:38:03] Jake: get hit up and like, "Hey, backstage, we're going to Mirage or
[00:38:07] Rory: whatever." It is nice, uh, like having friends in that. It's a good industry to like. Yeah. Yeah. And people would never expect it from a tape bro.
[00:38:13] Jake: Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:13] Rory: And then I'm like, "Oh yeah, I've got like a triple A to Coachella," and they're like, "How?"
[00:38:16] Jake: So w- when you do go out in New York, what does a night out look like?
[00:38:20] Rory: I'm not a big nighter. My friends have a lot of house parties-
[00:38:22] Jake: Okay ...
[00:38:23] Rory: and dinners. Yeah. And like I've, I've been to like Like fewer bars and, and clubs than I could, like, count on [00:38:30] hand.
[00:38:30] Rory: Like, I, like- I feel like this is a West Village lifestyle.
[00:38:33] Jake: It's more dinner,
[00:38:34] Rory: dinner part- It's dinners and, dinners and houses. Yeah. Yeah, brownstones and cool apartments, and like we just hang out. Like I, I've, I don't remember the last time I, like, went, like clubbing or something. Like it's not really-
[00:38:43] Jake: Yeah.
[00:38:43] Jake: You go out to nice dinners.
[00:38:44] Rory: Very nice dinners.
[00:38:45] Jake: Yeah.
[00:38:45] Rory: Yeah. Uh, a lot of great... I mean, we're spoiled for choice of restaurants here, right? It's insane. But
[00:38:49] Jake: I feel like if you live in the West Village, I would go out Monday through Thursday in the West Village, and then Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I'm going anywhere else.
[00:38:56] Rory: It's still g- it's al- it's good all way around though, right?
[00:38:58] Jake: I know, but just like, [00:39:00] you know- Yeah ... it's just so, it gets so chaotic.
[00:39:01] Rory: Yeah. Yeah. I, I don't know. It, it depends on where you are. But I, I hear what you're saying. I kinda like the chaos. Like, 'cause I'm on my laptop so much during the week, I sorta wanna leave the house on a Friday night.
[00:39:10] Rory: Yeah. You want people around. Like this weekend, went out Friday night with like... Do you know these guys from LA, like Nate Teffer, Max Gomez, Chris Josephs, like those guys? They're all startup founders who just moved here. We went out, then I went and met up with my mate Katie at Uncommons, and then I went out with like Olivia at like a restaurant, and then we went to a bar.
[00:39:25] Rory: And like all of this was in like a four block radius, so we're never getting in an Uber. Yeah. It's just like- People are just
[00:39:29] Jake: texting, right?
[00:39:29] Rory: [00:39:30] Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. And like going out in New York is so fun 'cause you can just like constantly run into people you know on every street corner, and then you just go to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, and you're just- Yeah
[00:39:38] Rory: out for like the whole weekend. I've barely been home this weekend. It's been so nice. Right. You don't, you don't make plans in New York, they just happen. It just, you just keep flowing. No. And there's like a few- Yeah ... potholes and you see which one you're going in.
[00:39:47] Jake: Pothole, yeah. It's funny though, when people first move here, they try to like really regiment and book and get reservations, and then you just learn you...
[00:39:54] Jake: It's like college almost. Yeah. You have to socialize in order to, to get in. Yeah. Yeah. And then all of a sudden [00:40:00] you just, like you said, you just check your phone- Yeah ... and there's stuff going on.
[00:40:02] Rory: When I first moved here, I was like, I wanted to just kind of bucket list check the like elite restaurants just to see what they're like.
[00:40:07] Rory: So like, you know, I went to like Carbone and Corner Store and Don Angie and stuff like that. You like
[00:40:11] Sajag: Carbone?
[00:40:11] Rory: Yeah, it's good. Like it... You feel like an Italian mobster in there, which is kind of cool. Um, the one I, I really-
[00:40:16] Sajag: Ray's or what's
[00:40:17] Rory: Rao's? That's, that's where I wanna, I wanna go to Rao's.
[00:40:20] Sajag: Well, we'll get you there.
[00:40:20] Rory: Okay. Yeah, we'll
[00:40:21] Sajag: get you there.
[00:40:21] Rory: Yeah. 'Cause you need to know like a crime family, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:40:23] Sajag: We,
[00:40:24] Rory: we, we have
[00:40:24] Jake: some crime family.
[00:40:25] Rory: Yeah, so- We know some crime. Sick. Yeah. 'Cause that's kind of like the pinnacle of like, like, [00:40:30] yeah, fascinating concept for a place.
[00:40:31] Jake: I played for, uh, a famous Italian baseball coach.
[00:40:35] Rory: Nice. He
[00:40:35] Jake: was very affiliated.
[00:40:37] Rory: Nice. And
[00:40:37] Jake: we got some connects.
[00:40:38] Rory: Love that. Dude, you're putting this
[00:40:40] Jake: thing in my
[00:40:40] Rory: throat. Hey,
[00:40:42] Sajag: don't act
[00:40:42] Rory: like it's the first time.
[00:40:43] Jake: Shut up. So going back to, uh, the restaurant scene in, here in, in New York, 'cause I wanna hear some of your spots. Um, where were you this past weekend?
[00:40:53] Jake: Where'd you, uh,
[00:40:54] Rory: for- I love... I'm a big Cafe Cloney fan.
[00:40:56] Jake: Me too.
[00:40:56] Rory: Love Cafe Cloney.
[00:40:57] Jake: Great. Uh, one of the best brunches.
[00:40:57] Rory: I, I live right next to it. Okay. And I'm spoiled [00:41:00] on that street because within, like, a block I've got Cafe Cloney-
[00:41:03] Jake: Yep ...
[00:41:03] Rory: Dante Aperitivo, Don Angie-
[00:41:05] Jake: Yep ...
[00:41:06] Rory: Saint Tropez-
[00:41:06] Jake: Dante ...
[00:41:07] Rory: Bartolo, Do Not Disturb-
[00:41:09] Jake: Yep
[00:41:09] Rory: Corner Bistro. Correct. All there on that block. It's cr- and La Bea as well. It's a crazy block. Like, all, they're like right in front of it. It's actually ins- and then Tartine's on the corner. But there's so many... Like, that, I live on, like, the best intersection ever for restaurants, and so I've just gotten, like, so into it.
[00:41:23] Rory: And, um, but the problem is, my, my friend always says this, he's like, "We live on, like, the best street in New York for restaurants, but it's also the worst street because you can't just, like, leave the [00:41:30] house and walk in- Yeah. Yeah ... to any of these places." Like, they're all full. But,
[00:41:32] Jake: but you're a local. Don't you get preference?
[00:41:34] Rory: I've-- They know me enough now that they'll, like, dap me, but I can't walk into Cafe Cloney at, like, 7:00 PM on a Friday and be like, "Table for five, please." They're like, "Oh, like- Yeah, get out of here ... come back in two and a half hours." Yeah.
[00:41:45] Jake: That's what I'm saying. But- Like Monday through Thursday ... yeah, Monday through Thursday
[00:41:47] Jake: like- It's amazing ... to be able to just, like, roll out of bed into Cafe Cloney.
[00:41:51] Rory: It's, I go there for breakfast, and you can get in breakfast anytime. I can go there for breakfast all the time, and, uh, and I do. It's like my go-to. Like, when a friend's in town, I'm like, "Meet at Cafe Cloney," and I just roll downstairs[00:42:00]
[00:42:00] Jake: It's so- Have you been to, um, Steakhouse 86 yet?
[00:42:02] Rory: No. What's that?
[00:42:03] Jake: It's in the West Village. It just got, uh, written up in Bon Appétit, and we're very close with the chef. Sh-shout out Chef Winston. Our buddy Swa, who's a tech bro as well, worked at Meta, is, like, semi-retired-
[00:42:16] Rory: Nice ...
[00:42:16] Jake: decided to try to be a prep chef there He got fired within two days.
[00:42:21] Jake: Um- Two,
[00:42:22] Rory: it was two weeks. We'll, we'll give- Two weeks ...
[00:42:23] Jake: give him,
[00:42:23] Rory: give him a little more credit.
[00:42:24] Jake: But now we have a great connection, and they own The Corner Store as well. Oh, wow. And, and Resh. Nice. But we'll hook you up there in [00:42:30] the West Village. It's supposed to be one of the best- Appreciate
[00:42:31] Rory: it ...
[00:42:31] Jake: steak houses right
[00:42:32] Rory: there.
[00:42:32] Rory: Thank you. I did go recently to the Ambassador's Club, and I thought- You would die in there ... that was like, dude, it's the coolest shit ever. Like, I, I, this restaurant, I mean, it's already huge. Like, you- Yeah, yeah ... you already can't get a fucking res. But I, I went to a browser-based dinner there a few weeks ago, and I didn't really...
[00:42:45] Rory: Like, I, I just had the pot of flower. I was like, "I don't know what this place is." And I walk in, and I was immediately like, "What is going on? This place is so sick." And now I really wanna go there for my birthday, but I'm ringing them up and they're like, "We have no tables until, like, October." Yeah.
[00:42:56] Jake: And I'm like- Wow
[00:42:57] Rory: "What the hell?" That's
[00:42:58] Jake: the, uh- It's like a- It's the Indian population. [00:43:00]
[00:43:00] Rory: There's also a lack of good Indian restaurants in New York.
[00:43:02] Jake: I feel
[00:43:02] Rory: like- Is that a thing? ... there- This is, like, a known thing. I feel like there are too many. No, there's a lack of, like, good ones in New York. Maybe,
[00:43:06] Jake: like, really good... I've been to
[00:43:07] Rory: Dhamaka.
[00:43:07] Rory: And Ambassador's Club this year, and now Dashumi is opening here. That's gonna be huge. Ah.
[00:43:10] Jake: Like, Sema is impossible to get into for good reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:43:12] Sajag: That's true. That's true.
[00:43:13] Jake: But Global Masala's supposed to be large. I love Dhamaka. I feel like there should be- I think Dhamaka has one of the best curries in New York City.
[00:43:18] Jake: Yeah,
[00:43:18] Sajag: yeah. I feel like if you're, if you're running an Indian restaurant in New York, you should be, like, giving some preference to Indians, you know? And then
[00:43:23] Jake: what's, what's the one we go to? Hydra? What's
[00:43:25] Sajag: Ratisha's spot?
[00:43:26] Jake: Hydrabadi. Hydrabadi.
[00:43:27] Sajag: Like, that's the- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... just, it's great to have. It's in M- it's in Murray Hill.
[00:43:29] Sajag: [00:43:30] $14 plate. Really good, yeah.
[00:43:31] Jake: Like, you're just good to go.
[00:43:32] Sajag: Yeah. It's just- It's just great, great, like- Just great beer ... corner stop. Love that. Um, by the way, we will have Swa, our semi-retired and now ex-prep chef-
[00:43:41] Jake: Yeah ...
[00:43:41] Sajag: friend on the podcast next week with Cameron.
[00:43:45] Jake: So he bought this piece of art that we're making fun of him for because he spent way too much money, doesn't really enjoy it, and now he's not communicating- He, yeah
[00:43:53] Jake: as well as he usually does. He,
[00:43:54] Sajag: he, he stopped sharing the photo. He, he never sent us a photo. I'm just like, "Swa, send us a photo of the art." [00:44:00] Like,
[00:44:00] Jake: he doesn't send it. Don't you think you, don't, don't you think you should... I think bullying your friends is okay when it's to, to help them grow.
[00:44:06] Rory: I would agree with that.
[00:44:08] Jake: Right? Yeah. Like, to build character.
[00:44:10] Rory: Yeah. I've been
[00:44:10] Jake: doing- And, and he's, and you know those San Diego guys, I feel like they, sometimes they just don't get that. You know? It's just like, it's like-
[00:44:16] Rory: Their childhood was too easy.
[00:44:17] Jake: Yeah. It's just like, "S- be a little aggressive, dude."
[00:44:20] Rory: And Swa, Swa- Swa can dish it.
[00:44:22] Jake: Swa can dish it.
[00:44:23] Jake: That's why I'm shocked. He
[00:44:23] Sajag: does
[00:44:24] Jake: dish
[00:44:24] Sajag: it,
[00:44:24] Jake: yeah. It's simple. I don't know. I feel like growing up here, though, like, my friends are really assholes and I love them. [00:44:30] And, uh, and you don't real- There's an authenticity ... you feel the same way, too. When you go to college outside of New York and you start to, like, build relationships as a male, you're...
[00:44:38] Jake: I think some people don't ta- don't take it- ... the right way. You do, which I appreciate. Yeah, yeah.
[00:44:43] Sajag: I think that's why we're friends.
[00:44:44] Jake: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:45] Rory: There's an authenticity to New York culture and personality that I, I find very refreshing.
[00:44:49] Jake: Yeah.
[00:44:49] Rory: Like, people here- Yeah ... they will just tell you
[00:44:50] Sajag: what they think.
[00:44:51] Rory: Um, but it's good.
[00:44:52] Sajag: Yeah. You,
[00:44:53] Rory: now you actually know what
[00:44:54] Sajag: they think. They, they say, like, you know, in LA you're very nice on the outside, but you're kinda like an asshole on the inside, right? I hate that, I think,
[00:44:59] Jake: yeah, I hate [00:45:00] superficial. Yeah.
[00:45:07] Jake: Uh, when they, when they do that, I just wanna know how their day's g- like, if you're having a bad day, it's okay. Yeah. I wanna know, and I wanna subsidize you. Yeah. If y- but if you're faking it, like-
[00:45:16] Rory: Although, have you ever had a waiter come over and you're like, "How you doing?" And they're like, "Actually, not that good."
[00:45:19] Rory: And then you're like, "Fuck, now I gotta like hear about this guy's day."
[00:45:22] Jake: Yeah.
[00:45:22] Rory: While I come back
[00:45:23] Jake: for- It's true. But if y- you know, if you're, if you have bad energy, like if you don't wanna talk to someone and they don't wanna talk to [00:45:30] you, then it's fine. But on the off chance that you do have some energy to talk to that person, then you know.
[00:45:35] Rory: Yeah.
[00:45:36] Jake: Instead, you could just set someone off for no reason.
[00:45:39] Rory: Do you,
[00:45:41] Jake: do you watch sports?
[00:45:41] Rory: Are you a sports guy at all? Uh, yeah. I, I... Well, I watch, um, Premier League soccer.
[00:45:44] Jake: Okay.
[00:45:44] Rory: Arsenal? And then the, the Champions League final was yesterday, actually. Um, yeah, Arsenal, Arsenal, uh, just missed out. It was very close.
[00:45:50] Rory: Yeah. PSG took it home. I'm a Liverpool fan. Um- Bro, I have
[00:45:53] Sajag: a deep question for you.
[00:45:54] Rory: Hit me. Okay. If you could redo life
[00:45:57] Sajag: and you started from scratch [00:46:00] today, would you do things differently?
[00:46:01] Rory: No.
[00:46:01] Sajag: No?
[00:46:02] Rory: I've had so much fun.
[00:46:03] Sajag: Yeah,
[00:46:03] Rory: yeah, yeah. I would not. Okay. I, I really, I'm very grateful for
[00:46:05] Sajag: how life went. What, what's your advice to people, like, listening to this, maybe that are younger, maybe they're in college, right?
[00:46:10] Sajag: Oh, dude. And they're starting life. Like, what would, what would... What kind of advice would you give them? Well, the two most important things- 'Cause you, you've kinda done everything ...
[00:46:15] Rory: first of all, do the thing.
[00:46:17] Sajag: Yeah.
[00:46:17] Rory: Do the thing. Like, if, if you wanna, like... Like, everyone thinks that you need to, like, someone has to, like, give you permission, like build a startup or something.
[00:46:23] Rory: Like, just fucking do it, man. Just literally just do it. Like, no one... Y- there's no gate that needs to open. Just go and do it. That's number one. Number two is you have to be [00:46:30] post-cringe. It's so important. Like, you have to, like, just be prepared to put your face out there. It's fine. No one's gonna, like, cyberbully you.
[00:46:36] Rory: No one fucking cares.
[00:46:37] Sajag: I mean,
[00:46:38] Rory: you will get cyber- Like, if you're getting
[00:46:38] Sajag: cyberbullied- You will get cyberbullied either way There's, there's no way out of it. You will get cyberbullied. Like,
[00:46:42] Rory: it's, but it's not like it- I will cyberbully you. It doesn't matter. Like, just, just get past the valley of cringe and just fucking do your thing.
[00:46:48] Rory: Like, who cares? Like, if you fail online at something, literally no one cares. Yeah. No one cares. Just go again the next week. Launch again the next week. Who cares? Like, it's... And it's also, like, it's almost admirable. Like, I have friends who, like, fail, like, [00:47:00] 20 times in a row, and then they have a huge hit, and they make a ton of money.
[00:47:02] Rory: Like, it's admirable. Like, you watch it play out. So, like, just literally, like, stop caring. Just do the thing. Be post-cringe. Like, go for it. If you wanna do something, like, go and do it. Yeah. And there's no better way. Like, doing things is so much better as a way to learn than learning about things. Like, you can read all the textbooks in the world, and then as soon as you go and, like, actually start a business, like, you learn more in the first month than you would've, like, years studying it.
[00:47:22] Sajag: So you've been in so many different
[00:47:23] Rory: industries, right? How is networking in the music industry compare to networking in [00:47:30] tech? That's a great question. I wanna... There was an answer that came to mind, but I don't wanna say it on camera. Um, I, I think, like, the music industry, there is a drug undertone Uh, which was not a scene I fell into.
[00:47:40] Rory: Parents were around, not, not a- Mm-hmm ... big drug guy. Um, but there is a kind of a joke in the music industry, a lot of the biggest deals get done on drugs. And it's-
[00:47:47] Sajag: Yeah. Just so what, what kind of drugs are we talking about?
[00:47:49] Rory: Like MDMA and stuff, right? MDMA, okay. And so like i- if you're on MDMA, everything you hear- Sounds great, yeah
[00:47:54] Rory: you love. Sounds great. Yeah. Everyone you meet, you're in love with. Yeah, yeah. And so I literally would see record deals get done by two [00:48:00] parties, both of which are on molly at an after party from a festival, and they're like, "That DJ killed it. Let's sign him to Warner Brothers." You know? And the A&R is on drugs, the artist is on drugs.
[00:48:08] Rory: They're all like, "This is sick." And they get a deal across the line. And like that doesn't happen in tech as much. I feel like it's like maybe they're doing ayahuasca or something. You know, have you been to Burning Man? You've been
[00:48:15] Sajag: to Burning Man. I've been to- The deals happen- It does happen in tech. Yeah, yeah.
[00:48:18] Sajag: It's definitely happening in tech. I feel like I should say ketamine. They're just on like shrooms or something else.
[00:48:22] Rory: But I feel like, uh, like d- tech is less, like, like the music industry is more emotion driven. Yeah. And tech is more financial driven. I see, I see. Like a lot of the biggest [00:48:30] deals in music- Yeah
[00:48:30] Rory: I swear they're not even trying to make money, they're trying to be cool. And, um- Yeah ... and like the, 'cause so, like music industry like doesn't really make money outside of live shows. Mm-hmm. Like streaming, it's like, it's, it's cents on the dollar, right? And, uh- Yeah ... and so it's more about emotion and looking cool, and that's what matters most in that industry.
[00:48:44] Rory: Looking cool in tech like barely matters. A lot of the most successful companies ever, like think about like DocuSign. Like those guys like print cash.
[00:48:51] Jake: Yeah.
[00:48:52] Rory: And no one's like, "They're so fucking cool." And like, but in music you have to be like relevant- Yeah ... and cool and trendy, and you have to be like constantly crushing social media and whatever.
[00:48:59] Rory: I feel like also
[00:48:59] Jake: like you [00:49:00] gotta- Cool takes on a different context in tech. Yeah. Right? It's a different culture. Yeah.
[00:49:03] Rory: Yeah.
[00:49:04] Jake: If you're, if you're a Stanford guy in tech, that's cool. Yeah. Right? Like it, so I don't, I don't know. I think it's s- subjective to- Yeah ... to the industry. You know, Sujay recently took DJ classes.
[00:49:15] Rory: Did you? Let's go. Yeah,
[00:49:17] Jake: yeah, yeah. I wanna know what he- And then he hired, he hired my girlfriend as a stylist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She went out and thrifted some clothes. Well, got any leather shorts? She brought back some leather shorts.
[00:49:25] Rory: Yeah,
[00:49:26] Jake: leather, leather like uh- And Sujay wasn't, he didn't have the cojones to wear them.
[00:49:29] Jake: Yeah, yeah. But I [00:49:30] think that would've great,
[00:49:30] Rory: that would've been a
[00:49:31] Jake: great look.
[00:49:31] Rory: I mean, there's so much RO on being like well-dressed in San Francisco.
[00:49:34] Jake: Yeah. '
[00:49:34] Rory: Cause every- no one is. You show up to the party and you actually like put some thought into your outfit, everyone's like- Yeah, but if you're gonna raise
[00:49:39] Jake: capital-
[00:49:40] Jake: everyone's like, "You're horrible." ... and you're a founder and you're well-dressed, I feel like that's a red flag.
[00:49:43] Rory: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It, it, it, but in terms, the, the type of well-dressed. So like if you were pitching Sequoia and you wore a suit, they're gonna, they're like, "What the fuck is this guy's deal?" Yeah. But if you're wearing like stuff that just like suits you and fits well and looks good-
[00:49:54] Jake: Yeah
[00:49:54] Rory: and you don't look like you've just rolled out of bed, and they're like could... 'Cause the question they're asking is could people work for this guy, right? Yeah. Like that's one [00:50:00] of the big things. It's, it's not so much like you can be like a cracked basement genius as much as you want, but if you want to build a company- Yeah
[00:50:05] Rory: at some point you have to hire 20, 30, 50, 100 people. Yeah. And like if you look like a slob, like it's gonna be really hard.
[00:50:24] Rory: Tell us about Checkbit. We launched in 2022. Um, the concept is very simple, and it, it's actually remained a very [00:50:30] similar concept we've just, like, built out. But basically, like, uh, IDFA blocking was rolling out at the time. Google was moving Gmail emails to the promotional tab, and it was becoming very hard, like, third-party cookies were being dedic-hated.
[00:50:40] Rory: It was becoming very hard for online stores to reach consumers. And we were like, well, there-- a lot of people, especially women, they want to hear from brands that they love. We just need to open those doors back up. And so it started as the, the basic concept was, like, just opt in to hearing from brands that you wanna hear from.
[00:50:54] Rory: We're gonna contact you at the right time. And the, the motto was right offer, right place, right time. And, um, you think [00:51:00] about, like, how poorly, uh, junk mail works. You get, like, a random catalog in the mail. You don't fucking care because you're not actively buying for that thing at that moment. Right. Yeah.
[00:51:07] Rory: And, like, the odds of you going back and opening that junk mail later are, like, zero. You've already put it in the bin. But how well it works when you get an offer, like, when you're at checkout and you're thinking about checking out somewhere else, and you get an offer at that moment, and it pushes you across the line and, and makes you convert.
[00:51:19] Rory: And so from there, we were just able to scale it out into, like, let's not just do browser extensions, let's do SMS, let's do email, let's do push notifications. Like, any way that we can reach people, we wanna reach people and just take that to the extreme. And, [00:51:30] um, and now we're reaching, like, millions of people per day.
[00:51:31] Rory: Amazing. Like, it's just like it has spread so much. We- we're partnered- Yeah ... with so many online stores now that we can just, like, reach users en masse across the- What's the top of the funnel though?
[00:51:38] Sajag: Jake, Jake. So you go on a website, you add something to the cart, and then you get an abandoned cart email, but you never gave them your email Yeah.
[00:51:46] Sajag: It's, it's this guy
[00:51:47] Rory: We, we do do that
[00:51:47] Sajag: That's, that's, that's him
[00:51:48] Rory: Yeah. So we, we know who everyone is- Okay. Yeah ... 'cause you're-- once you're in the CheckMy network, there's about 200 million
[00:51:54] Sajag: Americans in there. So
[00:51:54] Rory: that's your Shopify funnel. Yeah, yeah. We-- And so basically, like the other way to think about it is we have built an ad network.
[00:51:59] Rory: We just built a [00:52:00] consumer-friendly ad network, and, uh, it works exactly the same way as like Google's AdSense or like Facebook's ads. It's exactly the same. We just know who everyone is when we serve content, but the content we're serving is very specifically- Wow ... e-com content, and it's at roughly like 200 million Americans.
[00:52:12] Rory: So
[00:52:12] Jake: there's infinite applications for that, but where are you focused right now?
[00:52:15] Rory: We're focused on e-com, but we are launching in other industries very soon. Like I finished the website two days ago, so we, we have a new brand that we're rolling out, which I, I can't announce yet, but like we can talk about on camera.
[00:52:24] Rory: Um, but we're rolling it out to target digital health, iGaming, like these other industries that have enormous budgets like credit [00:52:30] cards and stuff like that, and branch out of pure e-com. So the craziest shit, I mean, we, we launched in late 2022, and we had all these big ideas for the launch. You know, it's like big startup launch.
[00:52:40] Rory: Let's go. We put the app online, 500 friends download it and like nothing happens, and we're like, "Right, we need to learn distribution." So which like that's like, that's like the game, you know? Um, so we, we put this out and we're like, "Okay, we've just grinded and built this thing for so long. We closed the seed round.
[00:52:57] Rory: We closed about $5 million. Uh, [00:53:00] let's like all just take a week off." It, it was, it was basically like the, the week before Christmas in December. My co-founder was getting married. We were all flying home for the wedding. I was gonna see my family in Australia. He was literally going on his honeymoon, and we were like, "This will be our first week off in like a year and a half.
[00:53:14] Rory: We'll all come back on deck like week after Christmas, and we'll figure out distribution. Let's blow this thing up." And so I fly to Fiji to go to a music festival called Your Paradise, and I'm like, "This is gonna be my first week off."
[00:53:24] Sajag: Oh, yeah. Backstage tickets.
[00:53:25] Rory: I did, yeah. My friend Dom Furber was running the festival.
[00:53:28] Rory: Um, and I'm like, "This is gonna be my first [00:53:30] week off in ages. I'm so excited to close my laptop and not give a fuck." And I wake up the next morning, and I have a text from my co-founder, Elliot, and he goes, "I think there's something horribly wrong going on because we just had 10,000 signups in like an hour," and that's like, that's probably-- like we're probably being spam attacked.
[00:53:45] Rory: It's like a bot or
[00:53:45] Sajag: something.
[00:53:46] Rory: Yeah. We're probably being bot attacked or something. I'm like, "Fuck, I'm on my holiday. We gotta like figure this bot shit out." So I open my laptop- And Elliot and I are going through the traffic, and we're like, "Well, hang on, this is strange because th- these are not bots. Like, these are like actual email addresses, registered [00:54:00] phone numbers in the US, nothing's getting flagged as bots, like what is going on?"
[00:54:03] Rory: And then that was like 10,000 the first hour, and then it became like 10,000 every like 20 minutes, and then it became like 10,000 every five minutes. And we just watched, like I have- I can send you guys the video, but I, I took a video at the time. We had this new users Slack channel, and every time a user signed up it would post it there, because it was happening so infrequently when we first launched- Yeah
[00:54:19] Rory: that like every new user sign up we'd be like, "Yes," and we'd all put emojis on it and like-
[00:54:24] Sajag: Yeah, probably
[00:54:24] Rory: like- ... figure out who they were ... blew
[00:54:25] Sajag: up your like Slack
[00:54:26] Rory: rate limits- And this- ... if there
[00:54:26] Sajag: is one. ...
[00:54:27] Rory: this being like it was, it was crashing [00:54:30] Slack's rate limit. Like, it was just going, and just like hundreds of users a second were coming in.
[00:54:34] Sajag: Yeah.
[00:54:34] Rory: And um, we basically realized, so a whole bunch of stuff had popped up at once. We had a TikTok that we'd posted that suddenly shot to 16 million views basically overnight, just like went viral. That had spread to Reddit. All these Reddit super saving groups had picked us up. That had spread to these like underground mom saving groups on Discord that have hundreds of thousands of people in them that we w- we knew existed, but we hadn't like tapped into.
[00:54:55] Rory: That spread from there to like Telegram. Suddenly we were just getting posted like [00:55:00] absolutely everywhere. And then as soon as it starts going viral, you get another press wave from that. And we looked at the App Store charts, we were number three in the world overnight. Amazing. So it was like Instagram, ChatGPT and us.
[00:55:09] Rory: What changed?
[00:55:09] Sajag: How,
[00:55:10] Jake: how did that happen? You don't even have to spend money on marketing.
[00:55:11] Rory: We didn't spend a cent, and we're, we're watching this whole thing play out, and you would think that this was like a cause for celebration. I felt sick. We were freaking out, 'cause we were like, "This is fucked." Like, we were a team of five.
[00:55:22] Rory: Yeah. Like, you can't be that chart ranking with a team of five. It's too much ops. We refresh again, we're number two, and then like [00:55:30] an hour later we refresh again, we were literally like the number one app on Earth. And I can- So what do you
[00:55:33] Jake: do? You have to just- I can- ... raise and
[00:55:35] Rory: build- Well- ... very quickly Well, so, so we were like-
[00:55:37] Rory: fat round after that ... we were like grossly underprepared for this, but it's also like an incredible thing to happen. But we, we had something like 250,000 new users signed up in like a two-hour period. And we're sitting there and we were the number one app on Earth, and um, and it was our week off. And my co-founder's on his honeymoon, I'm in Fiji.
[00:55:52] Rory: I'm like, I'm, I'm in Fiji tethering on my phone because there's no internet at this music festival. Could barely do anything, and I'm like, "This is a fucking disaster." So, [00:56:00] and you'd think we'd be celebrating, but we were freaking out. We were freaky. Like, being the number one app on Earth when you're not ready for it is actually kind of freaky.
[00:56:06] Rory: We're getting like, like hundreds of people adding me on Instagram, tons of randoms just emailing me being like, "What's up, bro?" You know, like you just get like so much attention when this happens. Uh, one of the things that we didn't know or plan for because it's so unlikely is if more than 100,000 people sign up with Google Sign-On per day, Google turns you off.
[00:56:24] Rory: And so about an hour into this, our Google Sign-On had just been switched off by Google because they assume [00:56:30] that when you hit that rate limit you're being attacked- Mm ... and so they do it for your protection. And we had to get in touch with an engineer in Japan who runs Google Sign-On. And so I texted- How did you even get in touch with them?
[00:56:39] Rory: all of our investors being like, "I need someone at Google, I need someone at Google." And Nicole Wishart, um, shout out to amazing investor, uh, she- You
[00:56:45] Sajag: introduced me to Nicole ...
[00:56:46] Rory: she's great.
[00:56:46] Sajag: Yeah, she's great.
[00:56:47] Rory: She, she rang me. She's like, "I got a guy for you. I'll put you through." And I get on the phone with this guy in Japan- And he's like, "Sorry man, I thought it was-- I thought you guys were getting spam attacks."
[00:56:54] Rory: Like, he turns us back on and so now we're getting the Google traffic as well. And then, uh, [00:57:00] shortly later we get an email from Google Ventures and they're like, "Oh, whenever anyone crashes the, the Google sign on, like we like to like connect and see what's going on." Yeah. And,
[00:57:06] Sajag: uh-
[00:57:06] Rory: Talk about high
[00:57:07] Sajag: intense signals.
[00:57:08] Rory: And 'cause we, we'd been like, uh, yeah, we, we'd been so in the weeds just trying to like maintain the fire of vir- like true virality, um, that, uh, we hadn't even like really checked our like investor email. And we open it up and it's like every single fund in Sand Hill Road is in our inbox. Every single one of them just being like, "What's up?
[00:57:24] Rory: Like when are you guys in SF like come in?" So Harry and I flew straight from Fiji to San Francisco and [00:57:30] met with all these funds and, um, it ended-- Google Ventures ended up having a really good term sheet and, uh, and we, we love our partnership there and we ended up doing the Series A with them and then brought a bunch of celebrities in and it was a fun round.
[00:57:40] Rory: Yeah. It was a super fun round. And, um- Yeah, tell us what
[00:57:41] Sajag: else got in that round. If you, if you raise again, give us an allocation.
[00:57:45] Rory: Love to. I'll write a check. Well, we, uh, so we, we end up taking investment from the Chainsmokers, um, through their fund Mantis. And, uh, it was funny 'cause we, we had a few other celebrities on the cap table at this time, which I won't say their names because they weren't [00:58:00] doing a very good job.
[00:58:00] Rory: And we like our, our-- all of our investors are active. Like we text them a lot. They open lots of doors for us. Like they really like... We, we don't like harass them, but they're very helpful. Like they, they will help us with things. Um, but our celebrity investors hadn't been doing that. They just kind of wrote the check and disappeared.
[00:58:14] Rory: And, uh, and so we're talking to the Chainsmokers and we were kind of like, "You know, we're a bit burnt on celebrity investors." And they're like, "We're not that. We're like investors who happen to be celebrities and we take this really seriously and we wanna like..." But anyway, so, so Alex Pall, who's a fantastic guy, first and foremost, like a fantastic guy, uh, rings my co-founder Harry and is basically like, "You know, [00:58:30] we believe in this.
[00:58:30] Rory: Like let's, let's do this." So they end up coming on the cap table and, um, and then they have been so helpful. So an example, whenever we're trying to hire anyone, uh, it's very hard to like go to a guy who's getting like 500K from Meta and be like, "Come and be a software engineer at this startup."
[00:58:44] Sajag: Yeah. "
[00:58:44] Rory: We'll pay you like 100, 200."
[00:58:46] Rory: Yeah. You know, like a lot less. Um-
[00:58:47] Sajag: But like, let me get you to party with the Chainsmokers.
[00:58:49] Rory: Well, even better, Alex will like record a video being like, "Hey, we love this startup. Like come and work at this startup. My name's Alex, I'm from the Chainsmokers. You're probably wondering why you're getting this message" or whatever, and he will text it to that candidate.
[00:58:59] Rory: It takes [00:59:00] him like two minutes.
[00:59:01] Jake: Yeah.
[00:59:01] Rory: And then the candidate usually says yes and we usually get them and it's like a really, really good hiring hack that like only celebrity investors can do. Yeah. Like a tier one fund can't do that. Easy, easy.
[00:59:10] Sajag: Just get a check from the Chainsmokers.
[00:59:12] Jake: I mean, I, I told you this before the podcast, but I was DM-ing with Alex over on LinkedIn.
[00:59:16] Jake: Super, I mean-
[00:59:17] Rory: Super nice guy ...
[00:59:18] Jake: super nice and accessible too.
[00:59:20] Rory: Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I... They've done a really good job. Like Mantis is a fantastic fund and probably the best celebrity fund now- Yeah, definitely ... and it's because they care.
[00:59:27] Jake: That's awesome. Any athletes in that at, [00:59:30] uh, at
[00:59:30] Rory: all? We have, uh, we took money from Liquid 2, which is Joe Montana's fund.
[00:59:33] Jake: Yeah, yeah.
[00:59:34] Rory: Um, but I know so little about football. Nate Montana's been great, like that's his son. Yeah. Um, he, he's been fantastic. But I, I don't know enough to know what to talk to Joe Montana about. I don't know anything about football, so that one's kind of lost on me. Did you
[00:59:45] Sajag: play any sports growing up?
[00:59:46] Rory: I, I played like soccer and rugby, um- Like
[00:59:49] Sajag: you grew up in Australia.
[00:59:50] Rory: Yeah. You
[00:59:50] Sajag: have to play sports.
[00:59:51] Rory: Yeah. And I played Australian football until the age of like 16 or 17. At least beach volleyball or something. Um, Australian football is awesome. It's like not really a sport out here. So cool. But, uh, but [01:00:00] yeah, I didn't play American football.
[01:00:01] Rory: We didn't really have that. In Australia. Have you been to Old Mate's? I have been to Old Mate's. It's, uh, it's culturally accurate- Okay ... I
[01:00:09] Sajag: think. Yeah.
[01:00:09] Rory: I was,
[01:00:09] Sajag: uh, I was out at Old Mate's like a few weeks ago, like a few months ago, right? Just random Wednesday, and the prime minister shows up- What, in Australia?
[01:00:17] Sajag: at Old Mate's. Yeah. Oh, really? It was like during the UN conference. And he shows up and he's like, "Yeah, I-"
[01:00:22] Rory: Having a easy.
[01:00:22] Sajag: Yeah. And he goes on the mic and he's like, "Yeah, I haven't even been to the embassy, but they told me this was, like, where I need to go, so I'm here now." That's so funny. And the guy's like, the [01:00:30] bar guy's like, "Yep, you heard it here.
[01:00:31] Sajag: This is the real Australian embassy."
[01:00:34] Rory: Well, they-- Y- I'll tell you how you know it's authentically Australian, because when you look at the wall, they have a photo of the democracy manifest succulent Chinese meal guy, which is something that Americans don't know about. Yeah. No. But they should look this guy up.
[01:00:46] Rory: He was arrested for being a serial dine and dasher in Australia, where he was dine and dashing from succulent Chinese restaurants. And as they're arresting him, he makes this speech to the crowd, 'cause there's like news cameras there, and he, "Ladies and gentlemen, this is [01:01:00] democracy manifest. What is my crime?"
[01:01:03] Australian meme: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest. What is the charge? Eating a meal, a succulent Chinese meal. Democracy manifest.
[01:01:14] Rory: And it basically went super viral in Australia. All the Australians know this video. And you walk into Old Mate's, and on the right they've got a photo of the democracy manifest guy. So that's how you know it's authentic.
[01:01:24] Rory: I'm gonna have to look that guy up now. It's, it's true to our culture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's incredible video. You gotta look at it.
[01:01:28] Jake: That's crazy. [01:01:30] It's like a- Do you ever spend time in Brooklyn? What do you think of that EDM scene, DJ scene?
[01:01:35] Rory: I-- Not enough. I, I went to-- My friend Mahalo is, like, pretty... You know Mahalo.
[01:01:39] Rory: Yeah, yeah. My, my great mate. He's, he's pretty deep in that world. He's always DJing out there, and we DJ'd a, a, like, Brooklyn rave warehouse party in 2024 together. Yep. Um, but I, but I haven't spent enough time out there to... I meant to ask you about this. Uh, we were with Max Marchioni in LA like two years ago, maybe a year ago- Mm-hmm
[01:01:56] Rory: um, at a beautiful house in the Hills in Studio City, and [01:02:00] you were going on a date, and you showed me the four options that you gave this girl for the date, and they were so funny, and I've been trying to remember what they were. It was like Ne- I don't even remember this. I love that ... it was like Netflix and chill but with a twist on it.
[01:02:11] Rory: There was something about driving in a Waymo. Like, do you remember this? Oh,
[01:02:13] Sajag: he
[01:02:13] Rory: ChatGPT'd that. No, no. Dude, it was so fucking funny. Or Perplexity'd that. You, like, read me the date options. It was, like, the funniest thing I'd ever seen. Um-
[01:02:19] Jake: Wait, she sent it to me or
[01:02:20] Sajag: I sent it
[01:02:20] Rory: to her? You sent it to her. Yeah.
[01:02:22] Rory: Ladies, you want this in your life. You were just, like, riffing. You were like, "Here's some date ideas." And they were like... They were literally so funny. I wish I could remember. Uh-
[01:02:27] Jake: Dude, this kid's love life is fucking absurd. [01:02:30] It's just so funny.
[01:02:31] Rory: Damn. Don't worry, then cut that.
[01:02:34] Jake: I mean, that's how our dinner party started, let's be honest.
[01:02:36] Jake: I wanted to cook, my girlfriend wanted to network, and Suj wanted to meet my girlfriend's friends.
[01:02:41] Rory: Hell yeah.
[01:02:41] Jake: And it-- And you showed up. I mean, it was a good showing.
[01:02:43] Sajag: I did. Yeah, it was a good night. Yeah. It was a really good night. Loved it.
[01:02:46] Jake: It was absolutely- I just
[01:02:46] Sajag: met, I just met a bunch of dudes, so it didn't work.
[01:02:49] Jake: We, we host our dinner parties pretty consistently. I think it's- Like you said, better than going out.
[01:02:55] Sajag: So Rory, two last questions for you- Yes ... and then we'll, we'll call it a good day here. Uh, first of [01:03:00] all, if you could go back in music and you could, you know, you, you obviously pivoted out of music, right?
[01:03:06] Sajag: What do you think, like, life, like, does, is everybody unhappy in music? Like, once they've reached, you know, 10, 20 years? Like, what, what do you feel like is like the- No ...
[01:03:13] Rory: the dynamic? I don't think everyone is unhappy, but I feel like the musicians who are happy are, they have created a sustainable lifestyle.
[01:03:18] Rory: Yeah, they built one. Um, they've built a sustainable lifestyle where like, like I, I think like I look at Fisher and, like, he seems like a happy guy, and you look at his social media, it's like 50% his baby. Like him hanging out with his kids- Yeah ... and his [01:03:30] wife, and like they- But
[01:03:30] Jake: you know, his family's all like that.
[01:03:32] Rory: Yeah.
[01:03:32] Jake: The whole family- Yeah ... just has that energy. Yeah. And it's not, it's not like a let's get fucked up energy. Yes. It's just they literally- Yeah ... have that I wanna dance mindset.
[01:03:39] Rory: He's found a way to be social and happy in the music industry, and I think that's, I think that's beautiful. Um- Yeah ... and I think a lot of people have not, and they're just like run ragged, and they're, they're doing like 300 shows a year, and they're just like constantly on the road- Yeah
[01:03:50] Rory: and constantly lonely. It's like
[01:03:50] Sajag: going to like- It's not
[01:03:51] Rory: their purpose ... the conference
[01:03:52] Sajag: circuit. I- it is exhausting.
[01:03:53] Rory: Yeah, it's- Like, I was going to conferences every week. Oh, also just being in Las Vegas- Yeah ... for more than 24 hours is like chills you.
[01:03:57] Sajag: Yeah, I've been to Vegas so much at this point, I don't [01:04:00] wanna go back.
[01:04:00] Sajag: I
[01:04:00] Rory: know, yeah. Two, two- Sure ... night rule. Two night rule.
[01:04:02] Sajag: Yeah,
[01:04:02] Rory: yeah. Like if any more than two l- more than two nights, and like you gotta get out of there. All right. Yeah.
[01:04:06] Sajag: Last question for you, Rory. Who's the coolest person you know? We ask everybody this question.
[01:04:11] Rory: Oh.
[01:04:11] Sajag: Um, we, we'll, we're gonna try to reach out to them- Well, I-
[01:04:14] Sajag: even if we can't ...
[01:04:15] Rory: I just had him on my podcast, but Sammy Kamkar.
[01:04:17] Sajag: Sammy.
[01:04:17] Rory: Sammy Kamkar.
[01:04:18] Sajag: Yeah,
[01:04:18] Rory: yeah. Yeah.
[01:04:19] Sajag: Who's Sammy? Do you know this? He's a- He doesn't, he doesn't do podcasts. Your first podcast he went on, right?
[01:04:22] Rory: Yeah, so Sammy Kamkar, um, when he was like 19, 20-ish years old, he built the world's fastest spreading computer virus, and, uh- He got his name
[01:04:29] Rory: he was then [01:04:30] arrested by the Secret Service.
[01:04:31] Sajag: Yeah.
[01:04:31] Rory: He did four years suspended sentence, then when he got out, he built a company, sold it for $400 million to Motorola, and, um, he's a keynote speaker at DEF CON- Yeah ... most years and, and talks about like hacking and how he hacks into Google Maps- Yeah ... and all sorts of stuff.
[01:04:43] Rory: Fascinating guy. I think him. Uh, who else? Vinay Haremith is also fascinating. So he sold Loom for almost- Yeah ... a billion dollars and then walked away from his earn-out to move to Hawaii and learn physics. Wow. And, um, left $60 million on the table. And just [01:05:00] fascinating human, fascinating. A lot of like- Yeah
[01:05:02] Rory: really interesting life philosophies, but.
[01:05:03] Sajag: One, one thing I wanted to say, I think he has like his own like plaque in the Spy Museum here in New York.
[01:05:08] Rory: That sounds right. Yeah.
[01:05:08] Sajag: I'm pretty sure, like
[01:05:09] Rory: I've read about him- Yeah ... in
[01:05:10] Sajag: the museum.
[01:05:10] Rory: How old is he? He, uh, Sam, he's like 40.
[01:05:12] Sajag: Okay.
[01:05:12] Rory: Um, maybe late 30s. Wow. Yeah, he's amazing.
[01:05:14] Rory: Yeah. Um, the other one I'll plug, so Ma- Mary Holland Nader, uh, doing really well right now. So she got a TV show on Hulu, but the way that her family got their TV show, they literally just like went up to Jimmy Kimmel's producer in a bar, and they were like, "We think we should have a TV show." And he was like, "Yeah."[01:05:30]
[01:05:30] Rory: And it just proves like- It's that, that's that easy to get a TV show ... it's everything you're talking about. It's like ask for what you want. Yeah, yeah. Like, like tell the world what you want. Like, go and get it. Um, I don't know. There's a lot of interesting people. I, yeah. Yeah. I, if I had to whittle it down, like those are three that come to top of mind, but there's so many interesting people out there.
[01:05:43] Sajag: Yeah. So,
[01:05:43] Rory: um, it's great.
[01:05:45] Sajag: That's awesome. Well, Rory, thanks so much for being on.
[01:05:47] Rory: Thank you for having me.
[01:05:48] Sajag: Yeah.
[01:05:48] Rory: Yeah. Appreciate it. I
[01:05:48] Sajag: think this was a great time, great chat.
[01:05:50] Rory: Yeah.
[01:05:51] Sajag: And, uh-
[01:05:52] Rory: Honored to, honored to be guest number one. Thank you.
[01:05:53] Sajag: Yeah.
[01:05:54] Jake: Yeah.
[01:05:55] Sajag: Cool. That's right. We'll see you, we'll see you guys on the next [01:06:00] one.
